Mark Carney

Even suggesting that the U.S. might someday withdraw from the alliance or not uphold the Article 5 principle. And by the end of his term, all but giving these NATO members an ultimatum that they have to pay for their own defense and security.

Even suggesting that the U.S. might someday withdraw from the alliance or not uphold the Article 5 principle. And by the end of his term, all but giving these NATO members an ultimatum that they have to pay for their own defense and security.

Well, the Europeans were annoyed, even somewhat alarmed. But fundamentally, they thought of Trump in that first term as an aberration. They thought that the U.S. had gone off on this rather scary detour, but that it wouldn't really mean the long-term dismantling of the alliance. After all, Trump didn't follow through on many of these threats. He didn't pull out of NATO.

Well, the Europeans were annoyed, even somewhat alarmed. But fundamentally, they thought of Trump in that first term as an aberration. They thought that the U.S. had gone off on this rather scary detour, but that it wouldn't really mean the long-term dismantling of the alliance. After all, Trump didn't follow through on many of these threats. He didn't pull out of NATO.

And then, of course, in 2020, Trump lost his re-election. And you had Joe Biden come in.

And then, of course, in 2020, Trump lost his re-election. And you had Joe Biden come in.

…who was a paragon of old-school transatlantic diplomacy. This is a guy who believed in NATO, had been deeply involved in diplomacy with European countries for decades. He's a real traditionalist. Is the world safer with NATO?

…who was a paragon of old-school transatlantic diplomacy. This is a guy who believed in NATO, had been deeply involved in diplomacy with European countries for decades. He's a real traditionalist. Is the world safer with NATO?

And so the Europeans were reassured. They thought the U.S. is now back to standard operating procedure. And it felt like the status quo had been restored. And indeed, that was reinforced after Russia invaded Ukraine.

And so the Europeans were reassured. They thought the U.S. is now back to standard operating procedure. And it felt like the status quo had been restored. And indeed, that was reinforced after Russia invaded Ukraine.

I will not bow down to Putin. Because you saw the United States and Joe Biden come to the aid of Ukraine with heavy duty military aid. And so for the Europeans, it felt very much like the status quo had been restored and Europe could rely on the United States as its guarantor of security for the foreseeable future.

I will not bow down to Putin. Because you saw the United States and Joe Biden come to the aid of Ukraine with heavy duty military aid. And so for the Europeans, it felt very much like the status quo had been restored and Europe could rely on the United States as its guarantor of security for the foreseeable future.

I think that's a very valid question. And I think to some extent, the handwriting was on the wall for Europe for quite a long time. As you say, multiple presidents had raised questions about this. And of course, as it turned out, the aberration wasn't Donald Trump in his first term. It was Joe Biden, who was a big NATO defender.

I think that's a very valid question. And I think to some extent, the handwriting was on the wall for Europe for quite a long time. As you say, multiple presidents had raised questions about this. And of course, as it turned out, the aberration wasn't Donald Trump in his first term. It was Joe Biden, who was a big NATO defender.

Because when Donald Trump came back into office, not only did all these old anxieties come back to the surface, But they did so in a much more profound and wrenching way. Trump was not just talking tough about NATO. A lot of the moves he made revolved around the question of winding down the Ukraine war. And that just gave everything a very different feel. a dictator without elections.

Because when Donald Trump came back into office, not only did all these old anxieties come back to the surface, But they did so in a much more profound and wrenching way. Trump was not just talking tough about NATO. A lot of the moves he made revolved around the question of winding down the Ukraine war. And that just gave everything a very different feel. a dictator without elections.

For example, he accused the Ukrainian president, Vladimir Zelensky, of being a dictator.

For example, he accused the Ukrainian president, Vladimir Zelensky, of being a dictator.

When Zelensky came to visit him in the Oval Office... Have you said thank you once this entire meeting? A lot of times. Trump and his vice president, J.D. Vance, ambushed him.

When Zelensky came to visit him in the Oval Office... Have you said thank you once this entire meeting? A lot of times. Trump and his vice president, J.D. Vance, ambushed him.