Mark Dunkelman

And there was a moment in the last Super Bowl... You might have angry emails I'm about to get because of this comment.

There are 19 and the other ones are pissed.

Yeah, fair enough.

You'll get three.

In the Super Bowl a few years ago, there was a call at the end against Logan Wilson for pass interference at the end of the game.

And it was not pass interference.

And I feel very strongly about this.

All 17 of us feel very strongly about this.

But it was called and the play went on.

And I think without that call, the Bengals likely win the game, but we lost.

And I don't sit here today and litigate whether or not the Bengals were actually Super Bowl champions several years ago.

We have a system today in which we haven't created within the government a system by which we can take a whole series of conflicting signals, requirements, demands, concerns, metabolize them into

into a decision where someone decides, I understand that there's an environmental cost to that, I understand that that's not great for the fishermen, I understand that we're giving up some clean energy, but this is the thing that we're going to do, and those who lose, who didn't get what they wanted, are forced to stand down.

This is the criticism that I have, and the real worry I have for abundance, is I'm not sure that we are articulating

how we're going to make these trade-offs in a way that makes sense and is both fair to those who need to have a voice but doesn't allow for interminable debate.

I think that we're getting a crucial distinction within abundance that I just think we need to acknowledge.

One is your description there of scientists being forced to spend an incredible amount of time doing paperwork, which is incredibly inefficient.

Like, I don't know anyone who's going to hear that story and not think that's an obvious...

reform we need to do.

There is a sense that government doesn't work and sort of in the spirit of Clinton's reinventing government initiative from the 1990s, that we should be rethinking these processes so that we are able to work more efficiently.