Mark Dunkelman

I think that is an important part of abundance.

I think to your earlier admonition that you don't want abundance just to be like, we're going to get rid of red tape.

That is in that half of the challenge.

The other challenge is trying to metabolize conflict within the government, because some of that paperwork is ridiculous, but there are moments where we're having ethical challenges about whether we can do this study, whether we've studied it to the point of feeling comfortable that it's not going to have terrible side effects that we're not aware of, right?

We're going to have to make hard choices.

which is that I argue that we need to have a system where people have a voice but not a veto.

I'm not sure that we have yet articulated – and it's going to take some law changes, it's going to take some statutory changes, it's going to take some regulatory changes –

And the bureaucrats and the liberals within government, the people that will be in the coming Democratic administration, I think they do want to get things out quickly, but they are deathly afraid of the consequences of making a choice that comes at a cost, particularly of a Democratic constituency.

For a long time, I would argue that the progressive movement was born from abundance.

The centralizing authority that it could do big things really was the

predominant ideology from the late 1800s through the 1960s.

That was an abundant oriented approach to progressivism.

And that we got away from that after that.

And we don't want to go back to the old, but we need to find

some core notion that government is capable and willing to make the hard choices that will drive humanity forward.

And I just think that's a fairly new conversation within the discourse on the left.

And if your book, my book, a bunch of other books, if this movement

refocuses on giving people faith that these public institutions can work, that they can make decisions expeditiously, that is a huge boon, I think, to the broader progressive project.

Because in the absence of government working, people turn to Trump.

It feels to me as though abundance as an ideology or a vision or whatever you want to call it is the most important antidote to the ascendance of MAGA, the people that were Reagan Democrats and that were Obama Trump voters.