Matt Kielty

Where he studies the history of psychology.

And Michael told us that what was going on at Esalen in the 60s is that it was sort of representative of this huge shift.

that was happening in psychology.

Because up until this point, a lot of what psychology was came from Sigmund Freud.

Freud.

And Freud, similar to the Catholics, really, famously had a very pessimistic view of human nature.

Which is that subterranean horrors of the subconscious.

We are primal, inherited, ugly, full of horrible dark secrets, testering impulses and compulsions that we are covering up from ourselves.

And that even if you go and seek treatment, you seek help through therapy, you will still be left with everyday unhappiness.

What he called ordinary unhappiness.

Oh, I like that.

I like Freud.

Yeah, of course you do.

Oh, shut up, Heather.

But OK, so basically Freud is like, yeah, we're all suffering here.

This is what we're doing together.

Yeah.

And the best we could hope for is contentment, maybe.

But, you know, a little bit after Freud and a little bit before Esalen.

This is around like the 40s and the 50s.