You and Me and Mr. Self-Esteem
episodePreviously titled “You and Me and Mr. Self-esteem” — renamed by the publisher on Aug 3, 2026
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What sparked the self-esteem movement in America?
Wait, you're listening? Okay.
Alright. Okay.
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You're listening to Radiolab.
Radiolab. From WNYC.
Hello? Can you hear me? Yeah, yeah, we hear you. We're just ignoring you. You were not. I was waiting until it was recording. Hey, I'm Latif Nasser.
How did John Vasconcellos influence self-esteem policies?
This is Radiolab. And today... Do you know what this is about at all, Latif? Only vaguely. Only two words. A story from a pair of friends. Producer Matt Kilty and contributing editor Heather Radke. You want to say them? Self-esteem? Yeah. Or maybe this is actually really, in fact, a story about Heather's need for constant validation and praise. Yeah.
Coming in hot.
What is the most sort of like honest explanation of how this came about? You were feeling bad. I think, okay, the most honest answer is sometimes probably like more than I like to an embarrassing degree.
What were the societal challenges addressed by the self-esteem movement?
I feel bad about myself.
Hmm.
And I am a creative person in a profession where there's lots of ways that you can, if you're so inclined, you can find to feel bad about yourselves. There's always a list you're not on, always a sales number you didn't reach, always a pitch that didn't get accepted. And Matt is here acting like you're an alien from another planet or something. Yeah, totally. A few days ago, Heather asked me if I was proud that she jumped in Lake Michigan when it was cold. And he was like, nope, not proud, not interested.
It was jumping into a lake.
Wait, Matt, but you don't... Do you feel immune to all of these problems? I maybe like to kind of sit in my self-loathing a little bit more. I've been a party to that in the past one time or another. Yeah, I've witnessed that. I think it's like the seeking out of a sort of affirmation and compliment feels like a means to maybe feeling good. And I don't necessarily believe in...
What role did Esalen play in shaping self-esteem concepts?
The kind of project of the sort of goal of trying to feel good. But I mean, I don't think it's like that weird that I want to feel better about myself. No. Like, I think the question of like, how might I feel better about myself is pretty normal, like kind of about as normal as it could be. like their whole industry is based on this question yeah it's like everywhere like you see it everywhere like it's on reality tv it's on instagram you know it's like everything about instagram is like how instagram is giving us low self-esteem like wait but like what are why are what is this this just matt heather therapy hour what is there a story here what's going on it's a little bit of that throughout No, no, no, no.
We do – okay, no, we have a story that Heather and I spent a long time working on.
Years, years.
Years working on.
Wow.
But it's about the fact that this idea, this thing that Heather's talking about, this pursuit of feeling good about yourself – How sort of weirdly it's not that old of an idea. Yeah, it's not that old. It's kind of all based on a lie. Okay.
How did self-esteem become a focus in education?
And how so much of this you can kind of really trace back to this one guy. How do you say his last name? I think it's Vasconcelos. That's how I've always said it. Vasconcelos. I mean, I think. John Vasconcellos or maybe Vasconcellos. You call him Vasco in the book, right? Everyone calls him Vasco. I just feel like I... Interesting. This is a weird thing. Robert Pattinson, the Hollywood actor, bought the film rights. Did I tell you about this?
No.
He bought the film rights because he wanted to make the film of Vasco.
What criticisms emerged about the self-esteem movement?
And I had a three-hour meeting with him about it. And he was like, who do you think should play Vasco? And I said, I think it should be the guy, Magnum P.I. And he was like... Tom Selleck?
What?
yeah it was like i said the wrong thing i thought they'd be good i can see it i can actually it's the mustache and the big like bear like thing okay so john actually died back in 2014 and so we ended up talking to the author will store so will wrote a book about the self like how we think of ourselves called selfie selfie all right like it which has a whole chapter on john And then we also spoke to... Yeah, well, I've got all kinds of curiosities and questions, so... Mitch Saunders. One of John's closest friends.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What sparked the self-esteem movement in America?
0:02–0:27
2
How did John Vasconcellos influence self-esteem policies?
0:27–1:06
3
What were the societal challenges addressed by the self-esteem movement?
1:06–2:06
4
What role did Esalen play in shaping self-esteem concepts?
2:06–3:12
5
How did self-esteem become a focus in education?
3:12–3:42
6
What criticisms emerged about the self-esteem movement?
3:42–4:57
7
How does self-esteem impact personal relationships?
4:57–5:30
8
What lessons can we learn from the rise and fall of self-esteem initiatives?
5:30–1:20:48