Matt Kielty

And for many of these students, they were showing more signs of depression.

Whereas the kids who weren't tying their self-esteem to that academic achievement, then when they didn't get into the programs, they, like, could weather the storm.

And then the other thing that was really interesting to me is that the students whose self-esteem was really based on their academic success, when we asked them, well, what would it mean for you or about you to get into graduate school, they would write things like, oh...

It would prove once and for all that I am brilliant.

I am great.

That I am successful.

It would prove something about me.

And Jennifer, this kind of like shows you the fatal flaw of self-esteem.

Yeah, it's just that if I have earned high self-esteem today by having some success in my life, then have I earned low self-esteem tomorrow if I have a failure?

Yeah.

Like, if I don't succeed at something, does that actually mean that I am worthless, that I don't have value?

And she told us there was this prominent psychologist in the 90s and 2000s who went so far as to say, Self-esteem is the worst sickness known to humankind.

Because when you succeed, you're great.

But when you fail, you're shit.

And so in 2004, there's this big New York Times Sunday magazine piece called The Trouble with Self-Esteem, kind of tearing down John and the task force and the promise and dream of self-esteem.

In 2005, there is an op-ed piece in the LA Times basically doing the same thing.

There's also this big Scientific American article called Exploding the Self-Esteem Myth.

Yeah, this is like when self-esteem becomes a joke.

Yeah, like the sort of every kid gets a trophy, participation medals.

Right.