Matt Kielty

This is when all of that starts to become like very prevalent in how we think about self-esteem.

And there's actually online, there's all these published emails that John and some of his friends in the movement were sending to one another in the wake of

Yeah.

Of all of this.

It's kind of heartbreaking.

Yeah.

It's like John is sending these emails.

They're written in all caps.

And he's saying like there needs to be like a point by point rebuttal of the Times piece and that they needed to fight back and quote, take on this enormous historic life saving task.

But that just makes John seem like he's really fighting alone on an island.

Like he's like the Japanese soldier fighting on the island, like after the war is over kind of thing.

I think that's fair.

I mean, he never really... Never stopped fighting.

Yeah, he never really stops fighting.

I mean, there's a 2009 interview with San Jose Inside, which is, you know, his birthplace, San Jose.

Right.

And in it, he's quoted as saying, so now all over the world, the role of self-esteem is widely recognized and valued.

I think it's really proven to be all we thought it was and more, which feels so... Like, it feels delusional to read that.

Yeah, that does sound delusional.

And I think Heather and I reporting this story and, like, learning more and more about John is the sort of... Like, it almost...