Matthew Tankard

And Ruby, I don't know if you're up to date with this one.

I have no clue what we're talking about.

I feel like he's almost Elon Musk-y.

Yeah, but vibes of like inventor, impresario and young men just worshipping him.

Yeah.

And he's famous.

He did something really out of the box, even for himself.

I think that's the difference.

I think by the time most cult leaders get to murdering people, they've brainwashed them, they've groomed them, they've created this psychological atmosphere where people will accept something way out of the norm.

Whereas this bloke didn't.

He never got that far psychologically.

It was an insane leap in behaviour.

Yeah.

But I guess what this guy's saying is, if you really knew him, you could see that he was really into control and really into... Maybe to him it seemed feasible.

So do you think he planned it and do you think in his mind he was thinking, oh, this is going to be great when I kill a girl?

And how deep in it he was, I guess.

In his snuff films and in his documentary.

So...

How can you tell, like, how did he, I mean, the submarine's a tiny space.

I'm sure I'm not the only person thinking, how do you murder a, and when I say girl, this was a very fit young woman.