Michael Malice

This is horrible.

And he turned very heavily against it.

But he talks about how they would write one thing and say another thing and then think another thing.

And each of those steps was just more and more like kind of lying.

in terms of maintaining your sanity and maintaining your narrative.

I don't know that he intended the suffering to be a consequence of the collectivization, but it was quite apparent, and I think there's a pretty heavy consensus nowadays, that his goal was very much

Because Ukraine, again, resented the Tsar and had this kind of very contentious relationship with Russia, which obviously very clearly remains today.

I mean, the hatred of Ukrainians for Russians preceded Putin's war.

I mean, even when I was a kid, I obviously don't remember it.

But my parents just told me like the hatred that they had.

And understandably, I mean, they're basically under foreign occupation, what they regard as foreign occupation.

So your parents talked about a hatred by Ukrainians towards Russians?

Oh, yes.

At least- But at the same time, they were under occupation before, right?

And they couldn't speak Ukrainian, they had to speak Russian.

So this was a thing.

Okay.

I mean, they weren't certainly fans.

Well, sure.

But there's also a difference.