Mike Carruthers

And yet we have all heard the phrase, which is the opposite of the title of your book, that you need to think outside the box.

And that's kind of become a very dated phrase now because it's been so overused.

Still, we're told that, you know, you've got to think differently.

You've got to come up with something no one's ever done before.

You've got to, you know, eliminate the constraints and just let yourself run wild.

And I've always thought, well, I don't get that, because of what you just said, that then people will go nuts and nothing ever happens.

Yeah, well, if you can do anything with anything, then you end up doing nothing.

But like you say, if you constrain people and say, you need to solve this problem and hear it.

I remember the old TV show MacGyver where he used to have to use bubble gum and a twig to make the car start.

And somehow he'd figure it out because that's all he had to do.

Well, yeah, I mean, that makes sense.

If your constraints are too constrained, then you can't move.

I'm wondering what, besides creativity, this topic of constraints applies to.

I want to ask you about that next.

We're talking about constraints and how they make us better.

And my guest is David Epstein, author of the book, Inside the Box, How Constraints Make Us Better.

So David, mostly we've been talking about creativity as it relates to constraints, but what else does this apply to?

Having constraints makes us better.

Yeah, please go ahead.

Wow.