Nathalie Kittroweth

Anatoly, you told us this deal seemed like a go, but then Secretary of State Marco Rubio took control.

So how did Rubio get in the middle of these negotiations exactly?

The BBB, the Big Beautiful Bill.

It's interesting.

While one side of the Trump administration is trying to negotiate this deal with Maduro, here you have Marco Rubio actively undermining the strategy at every turn.

Why?

And so what is the plan that he presents?

And we've covered this on the show.

You know, it's still the case that the Trump administration has not actually presented any strong evidence that Maduro is a cartel leader.

That's not something the intelligence agencies have agreed with.

You're saying that Rubio goes forward with this strategy anyway.

Right.

And is that actually true that Maria Corina Machado would give up the same things that Maduro is offering?

Like Trump could just get the economic deal he wants and oust Maduro at the same time?

So Machado, it sounds like, is not being a purist in an effort to not alienate the Trump administration because, above all else, what she wants is political change in her country.

I'm wondering how regular Venezuelans view her pitch, Rubio's pitch, for U.S.

intervention to achieve that goal.

They obviously overwhelmingly voted against Maduro, as you've said, but do they agree with the argument that getting Maduro out is worth...

the potential upheaval of U.S.

military action in their country?