Niall Donald

and somehow sought this out and Brian Kenny you know when is of that type and they tend to really be sociopaths who who that's the only way they can really live the way they want to live is in the world the criminal underworld you know

Weird.

Yeah, it's a weird controlling thing.

It's a sort of narcissistic sort of personality aspect that, like obviously some criminals have this, but there are other people that are, you know, involved in crime that are good to their kids and good to their wives and all.

You're starting at that point and of course his ex-partner wrote a book didn't she about their horrific domestic violence she suffered at his hands so I think there's no doubt even if you're looking at it through a biased lens that you could think Brian Kenny is an okay guy but so he's

starting to get this.

So typically the way it starts, isn't it, when you start getting released, you're accompanied by, you're probably handcuffed actually initially with prison officers when you're brought outside the prison system, if you're brought to hospital visits.

then they tend to bring you to maybe in the presence of a priest or whatever and to be two prison guards.

But Brian Kenny is kind of at the next stage now, isn't it?

No, it's like, it's exactly, the clock is ticking.

So where is Joey in the middle of all this?

Because obviously he's

built a life for himself with the podcast The Witness he's become you know he's reclaimed his narrative as they say he's become somebody who people really identified with when they heard his voice and his story so he's in a very different position than he was when Brian Kenny was convicted however

Speaking this weekend to Crime World, he also described how that, you know, that doesn't give him that constant feeling of being protected or that he's safe.

So he's kind of in this sort of half clear of it and half not clear of it.

Is that fair to say?

No, I mean, words are one thing and resources are a totally other matter.

And of course, it's not just about treating Joey well as a person, which of course he deserves to be treated that way.

But we also have to look at how we treat people who do what he did, who become state witnesses.

Because, you know, we will need state witnesses in the future.