Nick Mott

At the time, you're saying builders and developers and oil and gas drillers and just all these interests had no idea what it would mean for what they do. Is that right?

That's exactly right. Like at the time, everybody thought saving wildlife sounded like a good idea. And it's an intuitive idea, right? Like let's save the whales, let's save the grizzlies, let's save the wolves. But what nobody knew was just how large the extinction problem was. And it turned out that really soon after it got passed, the Endangered Species Act got its first test.

That's exactly right. Like at the time, everybody thought saving wildlife sounded like a good idea. And it's an intuitive idea, right? Like let's save the whales, let's save the grizzlies, let's save the wolves. But what nobody knew was just how large the extinction problem was. And it turned out that really soon after it got passed, the Endangered Species Act got its first test.

That's exactly right. Like at the time, everybody thought saving wildlife sounded like a good idea. And it's an intuitive idea, right? Like let's save the whales, let's save the grizzlies, let's save the wolves. But what nobody knew was just how large the extinction problem was. And it turned out that really soon after it got passed, the Endangered Species Act got its first test.

And it wasn't from one of those big charismatic animals. It was actually from this little teeny tiny fish that nobody had ever heard of. And that battle went all the way up to the Supreme Court.

And it wasn't from one of those big charismatic animals. It was actually from this little teeny tiny fish that nobody had ever heard of. And that battle went all the way up to the Supreme Court.

And it wasn't from one of those big charismatic animals. It was actually from this little teeny tiny fish that nobody had ever heard of. And that battle went all the way up to the Supreme Court.

No, no, no. So let me set the stage a little bit. It's back in the 70s. This agency called the Tennessee Valley Authority, they've been working since the New Deal to build dams, generate power all over the southeast. They want to build this one dam called Teleco Dam on a river in Tennessee.

No, no, no. So let me set the stage a little bit. It's back in the 70s. This agency called the Tennessee Valley Authority, they've been working since the New Deal to build dams, generate power all over the southeast. They want to build this one dam called Teleco Dam on a river in Tennessee.

No, no, no. So let me set the stage a little bit. It's back in the 70s. This agency called the Tennessee Valley Authority, they've been working since the New Deal to build dams, generate power all over the southeast. They want to build this one dam called Teleco Dam on a river in Tennessee.

And a lot of people aren't happy about it, and it stalled for a number of years through other environmental legislation. And one day, this biologist and professor was surveying the river, and he came across this little tiny fish, and he thought it looked weird. He'd never seen anything like it. And he was an ichthyologist.

And a lot of people aren't happy about it, and it stalled for a number of years through other environmental legislation. And one day, this biologist and professor was surveying the river, and he came across this little tiny fish, and he thought it looked weird. He'd never seen anything like it. And he was an ichthyologist.

And a lot of people aren't happy about it, and it stalled for a number of years through other environmental legislation. And one day, this biologist and professor was surveying the river, and he came across this little tiny fish, and he thought it looked weird. He'd never seen anything like it. And he was an ichthyologist.

And it turned out that this was the only place that this fish had ever been discovered. So likely the only population of this little tiny fish, which he ended up calling a snail darter, existed anywhere in the world. And this law student finds out about it. And he wonders, like, could the Endangered Species Act be used to stop the dam? And he's writing a term paper in his environmental law class.

And it turned out that this was the only place that this fish had ever been discovered. So likely the only population of this little tiny fish, which he ended up calling a snail darter, existed anywhere in the world. And this law student finds out about it. And he wonders, like, could the Endangered Species Act be used to stop the dam? And he's writing a term paper in his environmental law class.

And it turned out that this was the only place that this fish had ever been discovered. So likely the only population of this little tiny fish, which he ended up calling a snail darter, existed anywhere in the world. And this law student finds out about it. And he wonders, like, could the Endangered Species Act be used to stop the dam? And he's writing a term paper in his environmental law class.

He goes to his professor and he's like, hey, is there something there? And they end up working together to get the species listed, file a lawsuit against the federal government, and they take it all the way to the Supreme Court, who decides that, yes, the Endangered Species Act can be used to stop a project. It has teeth.

He goes to his professor and he's like, hey, is there something there? And they end up working together to get the species listed, file a lawsuit against the federal government, and they take it all the way to the Supreme Court, who decides that, yes, the Endangered Species Act can be used to stop a project. It has teeth.

He goes to his professor and he's like, hey, is there something there? And they end up working together to get the species listed, file a lawsuit against the federal government, and they take it all the way to the Supreme Court, who decides that, yes, the Endangered Species Act can be used to stop a project. It has teeth.

And it doesn't matter if it's a big charismatic thing, you know, your whales or grizzly bears, or if it's a little tiny snail darter.