Nicole Perlroth

Looking back on Russia's twin attacks on Ukraine's grid and some of the attacks that followed, it's a little like reading the tea leaves. Maybe if we'd spent more time connecting the dots, we could have foreseen Putin's 2022 military invasion earlier. Certainly in Beijing, officials watched Russia's cyber attacks and the absence of any serious international response with keen interest.

Looking back on Russia's twin attacks on Ukraine's grid and some of the attacks that followed, it's a little like reading the tea leaves. Maybe if we'd spent more time connecting the dots, we could have foreseen Putin's 2022 military invasion earlier. Certainly in Beijing, officials watched Russia's cyber attacks and the absence of any serious international response with keen interest.

Here's Jen Easterly again, who led the U.S. cyber defense agency CISA under Biden.

Here's Jen Easterly again, who led the U.S. cyber defense agency CISA under Biden.

But China had already been laying the blueprints for their own attack. Most people just missed it.

But China had already been laying the blueprints for their own attack. Most people just missed it.

The everything, everywhere, all at once cyber attack. That's in two weeks on the next To Catch a Thief. Follow To Catch a Thief to make sure you don't miss the next episode. And if you like what you hear, rate and review the show. To Catch a Thief is produced by Rubrik in partnership with Pod People, with special thanks to Julia Lee.

The everything, everywhere, all at once cyber attack. That's in two weeks on the next To Catch a Thief. Follow To Catch a Thief to make sure you don't miss the next episode. And if you like what you hear, rate and review the show. To Catch a Thief is produced by Rubrik in partnership with Pod People, with special thanks to Julia Lee.

It was written and produced by me, Nicole Perleroth, and Rebecca Chasson. Additional thanks to Hannah Pedersen, Sam Gebauer, and Amy Machado. Editing and sound design by Morgan Foose and Carter Wogan. Thank you.

It was written and produced by me, Nicole Perleroth, and Rebecca Chasson. Additional thanks to Hannah Pedersen, Sam Gebauer, and Amy Machado. Editing and sound design by Morgan Foose and Carter Wogan. Thank you.

For years, Chinese IP theft was something most US businesses just swallowed with a wink and a nod towards profit. As for the US government, they took a gamble. They hoped that as China's economy grew and the internet took off, China would have no choice but to adopt international norms, improve its track record on human rights, and eventually stop hoovering up all our IP.

For years, Chinese IP theft was something most US businesses just swallowed with a wink and a nod towards profit. As for the US government, they took a gamble. They hoped that as China's economy grew and the internet took off, China would have no choice but to adopt international norms, improve its track record on human rights, and eventually stop hoovering up all our IP.

But hack after hack made clear just how wrong they were. And then this happened.

But hack after hack made clear just how wrong they were. And then this happened.

On September 25th, 2015, Obama and Xi Jinping stood side by side in the Rose Garden and announced the cyber detente nobody saw coming.

On September 25th, 2015, Obama and Xi Jinping stood side by side in the Rose Garden and announced the cyber detente nobody saw coming.

What you just heard was Obama announcing that Xi Jinping had agreed China would stop hacking for commercial gain. Well, technically Xi and Obama agreed to stop hacking for commercial gain, but this was no doubt a better deal for Obama than it was for Xi. Nobody saw this one coming.

What you just heard was Obama announcing that Xi Jinping had agreed China would stop hacking for commercial gain. Well, technically Xi and Obama agreed to stop hacking for commercial gain, but this was no doubt a better deal for Obama than it was for Xi. Nobody saw this one coming.

Not me, not the white hats who were getting called into Chinese cyber attacks all over the country, not even the government officials who pulled it off. So how'd we get here? Well, as Chinese cyber espionage ramped up, so too did the government's agonizing of what to do about it. I'm Nicole Perleroth, and this is To Catch a Thief.

Not me, not the white hats who were getting called into Chinese cyber attacks all over the country, not even the government officials who pulled it off. So how'd we get here? Well, as Chinese cyber espionage ramped up, so too did the government's agonizing of what to do about it. I'm Nicole Perleroth, and this is To Catch a Thief.