Pat Kenny

I'm looking at a comment here from the Taoiseach at the time of his death, Bertie Ahern.

He said of the man that he called boss, Charles Houghy made a huge impact on Irish life over a 35-year political career.

I have no doubt history's ultimate judgment on Mr Houghy will be a positive one.

But it is a tension, isn't it, that we see played out, I think, in art, in music, in politics, where you try and separate stories.

let's say, the art from the artist or the music from the musician or indeed the policies of a politician from the politician themselves.

To speak of Maureen, there's a very interesting quotes from Maureen.

It would seem everybody hates Charlie Haughey except the people, right?

That's what she said.

But is part of his legacy that he did fundamentally weaken trust, public trust in politics and

and politicians, that ordinary people in Ireland to this day who lived through that time feel quite betrayed, I think, by somebody like Charlie Hoy and how he operated.

Did it recover from that?

You talk about those defeats, right?

But this was an individual who came back and came back and came back and ultimately, it appears, wanted to be Taoiseach and wasn't going to give up on that easily.

Do you think this was a person who was genuinely committed to public service, who genuinely had visionary policies that he thought could improve Ireland?

Or was it an individual who was motivated by ego and power?

In a line, that divisiveness that you talk about, does it impact Fianna Fáil today?

Gary Murphy, fascinating as always.

And that book, Hockey, is still available in all good bookshops.

Thanks, Gary, for coming in.

Thank you.