Patric Gagne

Someone's going to say, Hey, she's not, she needs to be in jail or she needs to be in, you know, the psych ward or something. And again, these are, these are sort of childlike feelings that I had just based on what I was feeling based on the reactions that I got from other people when I tried to express the way that I felt or didn't feel.

understanding that things that I was doing were wrong and would result in a great deal of unwanted attention.

Do you know what I'm saying? Yes. 100% yes to the second part of your question. That is exactly what it is. It wasn't the apathy that was the problem. It was my reaction to the apathy. And that reaction was informed by society telling me, these are the feelings that you're supposed to have. If you don't have these feelings... you are denied entry. Yes.

And to your first question about what is apathy, I've heard it described as, well, isn't that similar to depression? When I've heard people speak of depression, it doesn't sound the same in that apathy, my experience is that the inherent emotions are there. in that I can feel glimmers of sadness and still be apathetic.

I can feel glimmers of anticipation and still be apathetic because these are inherent emotions. It's the lack of the social emotions. It's more like all of these feelings may or may not be coming through my periphery and I don't care. It's, I don't have any shame. I don't have any guilt. I don't care. And that's what that feeling of euphoria was when I assaulted that child was I had done this.

I committed this act. I had done it in front of tons of people, children and adults. I knew that I was going to get caught for it. And in that moment, what happened was, is I don't care. It's like, I don't care. Yeah, I did it. You know why I did it? Because I don't feel like you guys probably, there's probably something wrong with me. I don't care about that either. It was just this...

glimpse of what it would eventually look like to just fully accept myself. I didn't understand that as a kid, but I looking back, I see it now.

so much more isolating. Like, are you kidding? And again, kids are smart. We pick up on things. Kids know. And you test the waters. You'll say, I was raised in the Baptist church, so I understood these concepts and what you were supposed to do. And I remember I would try using

fake vignettes like well what would you say to somebody who was like this you know and it's like well and then they would give me their full you know download on exactly what they thought how they would interpret someone who didn't feel or didn't have remorse or didn't have shame and it was always evil and devil and these just singular negative words and I remember as a kid not even taking it personally just being like well I won't be telling you anything I'll just

It was sort of a litmus test of how, where am I in this? And then it was, I would just look around and find the kid that seemed to be getting the most favorable response and just mirror whatever that kid was doing. It was instant. Like almost as soon as I sort of came online in terms of my understanding of how different I was, I also understood I had to manipulate, charm, lie.

And instantly it was that they were just opposite sides of the same coin.

Yes. Yes. That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

No, I think if I could go back in time and undo it, I wouldn't because I have seen what you're talking about. They talk about how sociopathy is so dangerous because the lack of emotion, the lack of remorse, that means you're capable of anything. so are people who are full of emotion.

You know, it's like crime of passion. Like, hello. There's such a hypocrisy associated with the, you know, so-called disorders of aggression. And maybe not even hypocrisy, but just maybe a lack of self-awareness. And I'm speaking of the general we or the general you in that

Do you guys not understand that your abundance of emotion makes you just as quote-unquote dangerous, if not more so, than my lack of emotion? And what an elevated conversation to be having. Like, that's the conversation I want. Let's sit down and sort of see what we can learn from each other as opposed to making one group of people the villain and one group of people normal. Yes. Mm-hmm.

To your point, I want to be really clear too. My intent is never to minimize sociopathy, but just to understand it more clearly. Sociopaths are known for being singularly evil, and I get it. There are people who sit on the extreme side of the sort of sociopathic spectrum that have earned that reputation, but it's only one part of the equation.

Yes, I actually do think that there are superpowers, to borrow your term, associated with the sociopathic personality in that I don't experience shame or guilt or people pleasing or remorse or certainly not to the extent that a neurotypical person does, but I think that so many times the conversation starts there. It's like, well, then you're dangerous.

It's no, I just have to use, you know, when you don't have those internal constructs, you have to find an external philosophy. I choose not to do bad things because I choose not to do them. Not because I have some internal emotional issues, system that's forcing my hand.

Yeah. I could not agree with you more. And I have heard so many times people using a similar argument, but aimed at a different purpose, which is that good things that I do don't count because they don't come from an authentic place or they don't come from a feeling place. Yeah.

And this is not something that I've really discussed publicly, but for a long time, it's something that I did was I would volunteer like crisis counseling. I had a friend who volunteered with the LAPD and he would let me know about different incidents and I would just show up. You know, I would offer to counsel or to sit there or to exist.