Patrick Bury

And the same obviously will apply in Ireland, the limited defence spending we have and the limited capability we have.

So what should we do based on the lessons of Ukraine?

I think what Ukraine's been able to do, first of all, it's a whole society effort because they're in a war, you know, an existential war.

And the rest of Europe isn't yet, but it might be.

And, like, if you look at what happened in the Allied nations in the Second World War, you had the same sort of thing.

The stops of government, the red tape and everything come off.

You know, innovative civilians start to contribute to this with different expertise.

And this is exactly what's happened in Ukraine.

You've got a load of small, medium enterprises, startups,

between their own self-funding and various funding mechanisms from the Ukrainian government, see a problem, quickly orientate to how to solve it and get that into production.

and then scale it up.

So it's that kind of fleet of foot that really, frankly, you don't see unless there's an existential threat to the state and a civilian effort.

But we can learn from it.

I think one of the things is off the shelf and good enough is better than exquisite and long-term planning procurement issues.

So, yes, there's a lot to be learned from there.

And you've got to be careful not basically orientating yourself totally for

uh for the war which is obviously is what's going on in ukraine versus a war which is what would the next war

potentially look like, given the experience of Ukraine.

Now, I suppose people are marvelling at Ukraine under attack from Russia.

First of all, Crimea taken, and that is, I suppose, disputed.