Phil Houston
Appearances
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
Yes.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
Yeah, it was not, Megan, most of it.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
Yeah, yeah. She's a master at turning on and off the tears.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
shaking she was almost hyperventilating and she was like trying to get her megan when you hear megan right it's hard to not hear and feel badly for her when you think when she speaks about the trials and challenges that she's faced during her life If you're looking at her from the deception detection standpoint, what you see is that she's using these trials and challenges to hide something.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
Every time you ask a question, you see what we call the trifecta of deception, which is evasion, persuasion, and aggression. So she doesn't give you what you ask for. She then uses her trials and tribulations to convince you that there's no reason in the world why she should be suspected. And then she blames somebody else. She attacks somebody else.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
The number of people that she attacked, she attacked... Jersey, she attacked the FBI. She attacked the police. She attacked the public. She attacked friends and she attacked you. And and, you know, that's her way of trying to get people to back off. She wants you to feel bad about her so that by the time she's done, you don't even remember the question. Mm hmm.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
The other thing that she does that's very, very interesting is she gave us many what we call truth in the lie. For example, when she says what I'm really trying to do is get everyone to focus on Lisa and not me. Now think about that. If you're someone that's trying to avoid disclosing something, what she's really saying is, I'm trying to keep the light off of me.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
She is protecting herself from whatever she knows about Lisa's disappearance. She is protecting Jersey in a crazy way. And what I mean by crazy way, I don't think she has a great, any longer she has a great affinity for Jersey. I think she fears him.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
I have a strong sense that she left her phone there or gave it to someone. In other interviews, she has said that she deliberately left her phone there so other people could use it that night and I really didn't need it. And so I have a feeling there was an ulterior motive for why she left the phone there and didn't need it.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
I'm not convinced, Megan, that it is a baby plot for her. I'm not convinced of that at all. I think she knows either beforehand or after the fact. what happened.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
Megan, it's impossible to know because what I would submit to you is the focus would be on the I didn't do it. In the worst case scenario, she could have been the reason the baby's missing to begin with.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
If you think about Megan and trying to convince the world that she's not involved, the same coincidental nature of her saying, on that very night, I decided, it was either that very day or that very night, I decided that I'm going to go sober.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
Why was that night so powerful? Why on earth was it so powerful?
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
Yeah. Also, she said, oh, I didn't know who to call back. Google the FBI and you have a phone number. If somebody thought I had committed a crime, I'd be on the phone with the police or with the FBI. She's a drug addict.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
Take the L. It's very possible that she's simply trying to get everyone to believe that she's been through all the right steps and she cooperated in every step along the way.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
No, she she can make herself cry by thinking about all the bad and horrible things that happen. And and she turns it on and off. on command.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
I think it's Jersey as well. I'm not disagreeing with you. I think the admission to the lawyer about finding three phones on the night that three phones were stolen is ludicrous. Wait, what do you mean? To believe that that's not him doing a couple of things.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Mysterious Phone Call, New Leads - Part 3 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1024
What he is doing is he is trying to cover his tracks, first of all, because if those phones turn up somewhere, he thinks his fingerprints or other association, digital association, will be made with him. So he wants an explanation of why he's on there doing something.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Well, it sounds like, Megan, they're finally getting into some of the meat of the matter, because up until now, we've heard a lot of emotionally charged testimony. We've heard about domestic violence. We've heard about third-rate burglaries and things like that, like you were just discussing. But we haven't heard much about how this was some type of criminal enterprise related to sex trafficking.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
We're starting to hear now that who these people are that are the other racketeers. You've got other employees, security personnel. And so the government is starting to make its case. They've got a long way to go. But until today, I had a lot of reasonable doubt that things that I was thinking about because these witnesses all seem to have.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
some degree of kind of affection for Combs or maybe had affection in the past. And it may be that they all had some kind of an angle, some incentive to testify against him, maybe sour grapes. So the defense has been doing a pretty good job on cross-examination. But let's see if they can sustain that momentum now that the prosecution is really getting into the heart of the matter.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Well, you know, this whole testimony from this particular witness is a head scratcher. I mean, first off, who lives like this? You know, I'm a former police officer, prosecutor, criminal lawyer. And I can tell you that when people are aware of a burglary in progress or when they get arrested, physically assaulted and thrown yards and yards down a football field or that length.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Anyway, people call the police. People complain in real time. And there's other things that a jury could look at to corroborate their testimony. This whole business about working... 20 hours a day straight with maybe four hours of sleep day in and day out without meal breaks or restroom breaks. That's just not the kind of thing that's really believable in my view.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
And it strains credibility to believe that this has actually happened. So what it looks to me like is that she's exaggerating a little bit. Maybe because she's got some kind of sour grapes. Maybe because she is some victim in some capacity. I don't know. But when she's seen to be stretching some of it, a jury can disregard the entirety of her testimony.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Yeah, well, again, how are we going to corroborate and prove that other than accepting her and her work? Maybe we have the paper. If they have the paper and they can produce it, great. But if not, it's just another in the whole laundry list of things that just makes me wonder that if she's not just exaggerating a little bit.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
I mean, it's obvious this was an abnormal workplace. I mean, this is not the kind of way that normal people live. And so I'm sure that where there's smoke, there's fire. I'm sure they did work long hours. But when you say that you only got four hours of sleep just all the time and that you never took a restroom break, I mean, come on.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
That's just the kind of thing that makes it look to me like she's stretching the truth just a little bit. And what the problem is, if a jury... thinks that she's stretching the truth about one thing, the judge is going to tell them at the end of the trial they can be free to disregard the entirety of the testimony.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Well, he certainly has a beef with Combs. That's the problem.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
And there's the beef. There's the beef right there.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
If Viva tried to burn my car down or burn, let my car blow me up, I'd probably have a little bit of a heartburn that might linger through the years as well.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Yeah, and this is why I was saying earlier that, you know, the jury has plenty of reason not to believe this woman. Look, she's saying that Cassie was not good for Combs. I mean, my God, it's Combs that was not good for Cassie or anybody else, apparently. And yet she's saying that she would be, I guess, willing to go back to work as the chief of staff for this rapper.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
I don't understand how the prosecution is expecting the jury to even... take this woman seriously.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
My hope is that they're going to strengthen their case with some witnesses in the following days and maybe weeks that you cannot impeach in this way, because clearly this witness has some reason to have some kind of an emotional investment in Combs himself or in the overall enterprise, or maybe even in her testimony. And so the jury has plenty of reasons to question it. So
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
I really think that, yeah, like you said, there's plenty of smoke and maybe the jury can find a fire, but the prosecution, they must clean this up. They must get into some more hard, and I hate to even say this, hardcore criminal proof of crimes because otherwise the jury—
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Look, I tend to agree that he probably is guilty of all these things. But my point simply is that from a trial tactics perspective, I think it's bad form for prosecutors to muddy up their case with witnesses that can be impeached this easily. And one thing that a good lawyer can do is at the end of the trial, they can go through this.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Look, I think they've done – look, whether or not they've proven each of these counts beyond a reasonable doubt, time will tell. I think they're going to have some chances to clean it up.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
I think that two or three weeks from now, not only will the jury hate him, but I imagine they will have heard from some witnesses that don't have this type of, let's just call it colorful cross-examination that the defense can get into. And two weeks from now, if we come back and do this again, I think we're going to look at this trial in a completely different light.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
But it's absolutely possible you could have inconsistent verdicts. It's possible you could have a mixed verdict. I don't think it's likely that he would walk on all counts, but it's certainly going to be interesting to do a retrospective look at what this jury was thinking about at each step of this particular trial.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Well, if you look at what she's saying, I mean, there's evidence and testimony that, you know, he punched, you know, Cassie in the stump. This seems like a pattern, a specific pattern of behavior. It's almost like his criminal signature. And there are ways under the rules of evidence to get in hearsay if the declarant is unavailable, if there is like sufficient indications of evidence.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
believability and truthfulness and veracity when the hearsay declarant is unavailable. And unavailability might mean a refusal to testify or the fact that she's under subpoena and she's just not cooperating and showing up to court. So what we don't know is strategically how they're going to offer this evidence, what specific evidence they're going to offer it,
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
and then under what theory of the federal rules of evidence they're going to offer it. So it's possible the jury could still hear some of that, but we'll just have to wait and see how they do it.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Yeah, sure. There's a lot of, you know, and circumstantial evidence has put a lot of people in prison in the United States over the years, and it will continue to do so. So you put all this together and it does paint a very damning picture. But here's my concern.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
If somebody violated the gag order, what if this judge says, OK, we're not going to let the jury hear this because that's going to be my remedy for violating my gag order? It could very well happen that because of this leak, somebody who's a guilty murderer, well, free.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Well, my instinct is similar to yours. I don't suspect it was any of the attorneys related to the prosecution team. Law enforcement, as you mentioned, does tend to be leakier as a general rule. Of course, we don't know until the investigation reveals who the leaker is in this case. But my money would be that it's somewhere in the sort of investigative team on the law enforcement side.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
But here's the problem. The judge is between a rock and a hard place because on the one hand, somebody clearly violated this gag order, and there's got to be a penalty for that. On the other hand, if the judge completely guts the prosecution's case and excludes all of this very, very powerful evidence –
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
that remedy would be very extreme because it probably would lead to the acquittal of someone who killed probably four people. So the judge is not going to want to necessarily do that. So the judge is not going to throw out the indictment. That's not going to happen either.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
I think what's going to happen is they're going to find out who did this and they're going to throw somebody in jail for contempt of court. And there may be other less severe things that are related directly to the prosecution's evidentiary presentation. But if we had to guess, I'm going to say that they're not going to completely throw this evidence out of the case.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
It can be used, but somebody is going to pay a price for this leak.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
You know, what this looks like to me is he's maybe becoming, maybe by design, maybe he wants to become the next Ted Bundy, because why else would he even consider buying another knife like that? Because is he trying to duplicate? Is he trying to do it again? That's what makes this whole thing so really, really frightening. It's obvious this man was disturbed. The
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
If you look at the individual parts, maybe the pictures of the college girls in bikinis, if you just had that in a vacuum, maybe it would not mean much. But when you put all of it together, I think it really paints an overwhelming picture. picture of a guilty person, a guilty mind, and quite frankly, a very, very disturbed, deranged mind.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
This is an individual who, in my opinion, knew what he was. He knew that he had psychiatric issues. He knew he had maybe sociopathic
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
tendencies and he was researching it and ultimately got to the point where he just felt like he was going to have to just act out on these things that may have been fantastical in his brain but it became to the point where he just needed to go ahead and do it and that's what's so frightening is that there are people like that out there as somebody who does criminal defense um
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Well, I don't believe that he was brilliant. I think that the things that you just talked about showed mistakes that were honestly very amateurish. I mean, who doesn't know that everybody's got a ring camera? And who doesn't know that law enforcement can't see Everything that you do on your smartphone, including what you buy and look at on Amazon.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
So it's like he planned this to a point, but he was sloppy. He did not plan it as much as maybe the perfect criminal would need to have planned it. I think he was honestly not as smart as he thinks he is. He's not as smart as he would like others to believe that he is. And he made fun. foolish mistakes.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
And these are the things that ultimately are going to send him to prison for the rest of his life. But one thing we can tell from all this is that he planned this. He put a lot of thought into it, and that shows he's got an abandoned and malignant heart, one that's not capable of being rehabilitated, and there's nothing else that makes sense other than for him to never breathe free air again.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
This was a pre-planned, premeditated, horrific killing, snuffing out the lives of four young Americans who had everything in their future just waiting for them, and he stole it from them.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Well, the reason that a lawyer would file something like a letter in the actual record, you know, the court's records in the case, is because they want it to become public record. And so at least to that extent, I can kind of see where the judge is coming from. But look, there's only really two main reasons why you would ever withdraw a subpoena. And Viva's right.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Nobody likes getting these things. And just because you got one doesn't mean you've been harassed or anybody's abusing anything. But there's two reasons I can think of to... main reasons to withdraw a subpoena. One is you believe that a motion to quash might be successful and you don't want to have egg on your face. That doesn't seem to be the case.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
These lawyers have not shied away from contentious litigation, so I doubt that would be the reason. So we're left with the other reason is that they got what they needed, or most of it, through some other way. And of course, now we know about Taylor Swift's father. So it all makes perfectly good sense to me now why this subpoena was withdrawn, because they've clearly got what they want.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Now, whether or not any of that's actually going to be admissible in any trial, well, that remains to be seen, because pretrial subpoenas, this is all discovery. It doesn't have to lead to evidence that's directly admissible, but it can be in the search for evidence that would be admissible at a trial. So the discovery rules are pretty broad.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
They have the right to go on something of a fishing expedition. And I think they simply got the fish that they were seeking.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Dems Struggle to Connect with Men, and Diddy's Former Assistant Speaks, with Batya Ungar-Sargon, Viva Frei, and Phil Holloway | Ep. 1081
Thank you very much. It's my pleasure. Always happy to be with both of you guys.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Alternate Theories, Alarming Details - Part 4 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1025
I believe that she has, but it's also her undoing, I believe. I spoke to her about a year and a half ago, and when I hung up, I thought, my goodness, the frustration that she's feeling is going to eat her alive.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Alternate Theories, Alarming Details - Part 4 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1025
And, you know, I don't want to trivialize it in this comparison, but, you know, think for a moment, you're at your house and all of a sudden you're looking for your car keys and you can't find them. And how quickly you become frustrated. And you look and you start, you know, hollering at people and, you know, help me find my keys and, you know, whatever.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Alternate Theories, Alarming Details - Part 4 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1025
Think if that frustration went on for 12 years. How would you, how would you, you know, how big would that build that you're looking for this thing that you can't find?
The Megyn Kelly Show
Alternate Theories, Alarming Details - Part 4 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1025
So the first thing that comes to my mind, Megan, is that if I've committed a crime as heinous as this particular crime, I find it hard to believe I'd be running around telling people that we've done this. and so forth. And while one person might do it, I think if it were a group effort, that one person would be in hot water pretty quickly with the rest of the team, so to speak.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Alternate Theories, Alarming Details - Part 4 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1025
Even if they were under the influence of drugs, the next morning, they would probably be saying to themselves, we need to put a lid on this.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Alternate Theories, Alarming Details - Part 4 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1025
Thank you for the kind words, Megan. Believe me, like you, this case has haunted me. And I pray often that I'm right and that she's right, that... Lisa's out there somewhere.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Baby Goes Missing, Mother Questioned - Part 1 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1022
They've been asked, did you do it? Did you do it? Did you do it? And so you have to craft an approach to the questioning that cuts through that, that minimizes all of the histronics that have led up to this meeting, if you will. And I was convinced that they were guilty. until we ask that first question.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Baby Goes Missing, Mother Questioned - Part 1 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1022
Debbie, I think the first question that I need to ask you this morning, okay, is what involvement did you have in the disappearance of Lisa?
The Megyn Kelly Show
Baby Goes Missing, Mother Questioned - Part 1 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1022
What did you glean from that? What are we seeing there? First of all, if you noticed, I didn't ask her, did you do it? I upped the ante by asking her a presumptive question. I'm presuming that it's quite possible, maybe even probable, that you did this, that you were involved. What involvement did you have? And her response to that was immediately, without hesitation, none.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Baby Goes Missing, Mother Questioned - Part 1 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1022
But then she throws a curveball at us. She says, the only thing I did wrong. So she's confessing. She's saying, look, this is the only thing I did wrong.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Baby Goes Missing, Mother Questioned - Part 1 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1022
Absolutely. And they both look guilty as sin if you look at it just from a global perspective.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Baby Goes Missing, Mother Questioned - Part 1 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1022
And the other part to that, too, is that Deborah is no shrinking violet. I mean, she's not afraid, you know, when you reach a certain point, to really let people know what she's thinking about how they're behaving towards her. And I don't know this, I'm speculating, but that she probably became fairly angry and that anger could have been misinterpreted in the interrogations.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Baby Goes Missing, Mother Questioned - Part 1 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1022
And most importantly, she validated the level of intoxication. She said, I hate to say this about Debra, but I don't know if I've ever seen her. And I'm paraphrasing here, but I don't know if I've ever seen her that intoxicated before. There was more wine there than Debra told us originally.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Megan, I thought that your interview with him was great. It elicited a lot of deceptive behavior. The overarching mistakes that he made primarily were his failure to deny definitively
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Megan, if we want the outcome that we can actually get him to open up even a little bit, you and Bill need to stay together. And with you ringing the doorbell, Bill standing slightly behind you, if he's outside... Then you approach him, Megan, you would approach him first. Bill would stay back. Bill needs to keep you within near arms reach distance.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
You know, the thing is... ask him a very difficult question, but in a very low key manner. And one of the reasons that he talked to you so much, I believe, is that you didn't give him a reason to dislike you. And he let his guard down some. And in doing so, he gave some lengthier responses than he needed to. And that's where the deceptive behavior began to fold in. In this particular case,
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
He said, I don't have any involvement. And he used the present tense. I don't have any involvement. That was his messaging throughout all of this. But in reality, the truthful person is going to focus on the crime itself and say, I didn't have any involvement in what happened that night.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
And it's the equivalent of saying, you know, where the truthful person says, I didn't do it, versus the deceptive person says, I wouldn't do it. He's trying to impress the latter message on you, but it's clearly deceptive. Also, when he said, that's what I'm saying, I didn't have any involvement or I don't have any involvement, that's what I'm saying.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
That doesn't mean that isn't what it is, so to speak. In other words, he's not saying I wasn't involved. This is just what I'm saying at this particular point. So that one was a real key right off the bat that there's probably more lies to follow.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
In there, the deceptive behavior that really stood out was his immediate aggression against the FBI. And the truthful person wouldn't be thinking answering truthfully is going to land me in prison for five years, you know, or just because this is a death penalty case.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
If we want to get information from him, we need his resistance at the lowest level possible. And I believe, Bill, you need to give her the highest level of safety and security possible.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Yeah. He's using the convincing statements. And then you look at how he's standing on the ladder. He's trying to look very nonchalant up there. But in fact, he's very threatened by you and very intimidated internally by the questions you're asking, Megyn. But you didn't give him an opening to criticize or accuse you or attack you. And that made it very, very difficult for him.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
If you recall, he was standing up in a straighter posture when you got there. He wasn't leaning on the ladder in that manner. And when you guys walked up, Then he immediately leaned over and he hunched down. He was intimidated. He doesn't know who you are. He doesn't know what your intentions are. So he's a little scared.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
And so that anchor point movement that we saw represented a spike in his anxiety. And he'd sit tight and just look like he's not threatened. And that's a thing you'll see in prison a lot. The key is people have to look and act as if they're not threatened by anything or anyone around them. And given his prison time, he's pretty good at that.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
I loved your introduction. Hi, I'm Megyn Kelly. I'd love to have a chat with you. And here's the reason I'd love to have a chat with you. We have been working on the disappearance of Lisa for over 10 years now. And as a result of that, we know a whole lot more than we've ever known to include the players that are involved. And that's why we're talking to you today. We want to get your side.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
exactly where you were going, Megan, again, it represents a very significant spike in his anxiety level here. And it's interesting, why on earth would someone who's telling the truth need to admit that while they weren't, didn't say they had taken the phones that were missing, but they found other phones on that particular night by coincidence, so to speak,
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Who in their right mind would do that if you're telling the truth? Because, and what he recognizes is that by saying that he even had phones, that he did find phones that night, is almost as equally incriminating as the fact that the phones, he had the phones that were missing. It's clearly one and the same.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
So that's what led him to say, in my opinion, what led him to say, oh, I was just lying to her at that particular time.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
I think one of the reasons he might have been doing that as well is that between that night and today or the day that you're interviewing him, he has probably told someone, one or two people, that he did find phones that night and then realized that when you ask him the question and, uh-oh, I need to come up with a reason as to why I had phones or maybe someone saw him with phones that night
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Exactly.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
I think, Megan, what he's trying to do there, going back to the concept of convincing statements or persuasion behavior, what he's trying to do is he's trying to say, hey, if I did something wrong, I'm more than willing to step up and admit it. And often that convinces people who aren't really attuned to the behavior and the reality of the situation, and they buy into it.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
I would not mention investigate or investigation. I wouldn't mention case, anything that has consequences associated with it. You just want to have a talk. in a conversation. We call it a transition statement in the interrogation world, because what it does is it signals to that individual that everything that they have done to try and pull this off, to be successful, has failed.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
And that's what he's hoping would happen here.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
It's the same sequencing of deceptive behavior that we just saw, almost identical to what we just saw with Tanko.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
There's little doubt in my mind, in my opinion, that he is directly involved, if not unilaterally, the person that took the baby. That's strong. Not just from this interview, but it's from the history of the evolution of the case and the things that we learned about him over the years.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Um, and, and in the connections to others, um, and the evidence that, that we, we heard that, you know, about his activities that night, uh, all of that collectively suggests in my mind that, you know, this is our, this is our guy.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
As I said before, Megan, you approached him in a non-threatening manner. It's very counterintuitive in these situations. In fact, when we train law enforcement, one of the hardest habits to break is taking that immediate intimidation or intimidating posture and voice and accusations and so forth. You did none of that. You came up in a very polite manner, very professional manner.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
And you said, listen, we'd like to talk to you as if you were giving him the option. Now, he didn't know you weren't really going to give him the option that you would probably continue to ask questions and so forth. But he was willing at that point to say, OK, let me see where this goes. Right now, I'm up here on this ladder. I'm in a safe place. So what's the harm?
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
And maybe I can gain some ground in the meantime. And because of what you ask him and how you ask them, it allowed you to gain ground. And he wasn't realizing that he had let his guard down. And he's now talking to you in narratives instead of one word answers or refusing to answer or whatever. He's thinking, OK, maybe I can pull off a fast one with this lady.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Oh, absolutely. It's one of the most used convincing statements there is. But the timing of when he did it was quite interesting to me. It was interesting because it suggests that he felt he played a good role here, that he really accomplished something in the manner in which he answered your questions. He was kind of being a peacock here and saying, hey, I've been very honest with you.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
And that's when you would get in with the first question. What was your role in the disappearance? It's a presumptive question. A question you want to make sure if you can get in on camera is the question about the telephone. Is there any reason your fingerprints are on those telephones that went missing that night?
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
And in reality, he knows he's been anything but that.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
It's, again, truth in the lie, as many of these other statements that he made. He's saying something that's truthful. It did mess up his head. But in reality, a truthful person, that's not going to happen.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
In other words, if they'd have gone, a truthful person 10 years later or 13 years later is not going to be terrified and fear that they're going to go to jail or they're going to get the death penalty, whatever the case may be. Yet these are all these things that he's saying, and these are the things that are worrying him.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
And so I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a day that goes by that he thinks about that night.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Remember what we said earlier, how he said, I don't have any involvement. That is his agenda in his mind. And so when you ask him a question that is similar to that now, he's already got the answer framed out. And that's why it looks and sounds, you know, more truthful. I'll give you another example of that.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
At one point, you ask him, I think, about fingerprints or whatever on the phone, and he gave what on the surface would appear to be a truthful answer.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
I suspect by the end of the night, his fingerprints were no longer on that phone. And he knows that and he's wiped them off. And so that's something that he can say, you know, truthfully.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
That's the fact that is the best ally for the truthful person. Tell the truth. And in his case, the truth has consequences associated with it. And that's what makes it difficult for him. Now, the advantage he has a little bit is he's been asked a lot of these questions over the years. And so he has some frame of reference.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
But what was different this time is somebody's talking to him in almost a kind way. You weren't judgmental of him. And that was really important.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
If you assume for a moment that our assessment of John Tanko is correct, And then you look at what Megan is saying about him. She clearly is trying to distance herself from him. It appears likely so much so that it appears likely to me that she knows what he's been up to and likely she knows what happened that night.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
You keep talking. John, you're a smart guy. You know that at some point this was going to come to this. You can help resolve this whole matter that has caused pain and anguish to the parents and to their family. We're not here to argue with you or call you names or anything. And what you're doing is
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
And as a result, she doesn't want to go down if he is, you know, if Tanko is finally arrested, you know, uncovered or identified as the perpetrator and is arrested, then she would then become a co-conspirator. And she realizes that. So she's trying to leave the impression in everyone's mind that she has nothing to do with him. And long before the baby went missing, she had nothing to do with him.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
And she's trying to create that image. That was by design. Well, when you ask Tanko any questions about Megan Wright, he becomes very protective of her. He immediately says, no, she's not involved. and, and exonerates her. And I believe he's doing that because he knows that she knows and knows what she knows. And as a result, he has no choice but to defend her.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
He has no choice but to defend her. She has other options. She isn't the person that actually did it.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
you're limiting or minimizing the amount of questions because every time he answers the lie, your job gets twice as hard to get that admission. But if you could right off the bat can get him to listen to you, you've got a shot.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Yes, indeed, Jim. Thanks a ton. It's a pleasure to meet you.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
I understand, Bill, but I think you may have a chance to get him to open up a little bit.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Without trying to buddy up or cozy up to him. You don't want him to make a denial. Once they deny, that really makes your job difficult. And so when you see them start to make a denial, what you want to do is say their name. Whether people realize it or not, one good way to interrupt a person, stop them from talking, is to say their name.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Just instinctively, people shut up when they hear their name. It's a three-step process. You say, John, hang on. It's a control phrase. John, hang on for a minute, okay? And then I want to hear your side of it. And you've got your hand up is the third. So John, the control phrase and the hand up. And it's not in your face. It's almost like a defensive gesture.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Yes. Stop the denials at all costs, no matter what happens throughout the whole thing. Just keep saying, John, let's talk about the truth. It's not easy. I mean, if it were easy, we'd have a ton more confessions than we have. Mm-hmm. But people do break, and they break at moments for reasons we don't understand sometimes. This could be it.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Bill, I'm going to do something I've never- I'm happily wrong.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
You're absolutely wrong. We do this all the time.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
I am not anticipating a full confession by any stretch. But if you got, for example, an acknowledgement that he had those phones and he did something with them and so forth, that's tantamount to a confession.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Bill, I talk to terrorists who are far, far more conditioned not to give up information, and they talk. They talk if you approach them in the right manner.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Okay. You could say, John, look, this is not about lawyers. We're not here to bring harm to anybody, including yourself. We just want the truth. And you have a very critical piece of information that will help this get resolved.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
Yeah, that's how I would have done it if I were in your shoes. This scripting, this is what I and my colleagues have done for years and years and years. And it just works. It works often when nothing else does work.
The Megyn Kelly Show
Tanko Talks, Megyn's Hidden Camera Footage - Part 5 of Megyn Kelly Investigates: Baby Lisa's Disappearance | Ep. 1026
You know, nobody else did. You know, nobody else has.