Professor Mariana Mazzucato

Did I say that?

No, no, no, you didn't say that.

But no, no, absolutely not.

But you did say, and I'm not disagreeing with it, I'm just saying what I think.

I don't think it's that like the UK, say, working class has always suffered the same amount because the economy hasn't worked for them.

I think there are certain periods in which things...

go much worse, and we need to better understand why.

So for example, if you look at Tony Blair's long essay that he just wrote, I actually have a very different analysis of why I think the working class is not benefiting.

It's not because we're not stimulating growth, because there's too much planning, too much regulation, too much red tape.

For example, corporate governance is a huge problem in the UK.

He doesn't mention it once.

And so the populism point, just to get to that, because that is one of the reasons I wrote it,

If you look at what happened with the US election, I think something very interesting happened, which not enough people, including myself, have thought enough about, which is that the IRA, the Inflation Reduction Act, this massive stimulus that Biden designed, actually had the biggest economic impact in red states, so in Trump voting states.

So the question is, how can it be that people who in theory were actually benefiting from the economic policy, so it's the economy, stupid, you know, was working,

And yet they didn't feel valued.

They didn't get their dignity back after feeling really left behind and being left behind.

So what is the message for how progressive economists and political economics has to think not only about wages, not only about a stimulus program, not only about really important economic issues, but how do we make people feel valued that have not been valued?

Yeah.

than feeling condescended upon.

And the compass, right, these five elements, the second element is about co-creation and participation.