Professor Mariana Mazzucato

How do you not just say the green economy is going to be good for you, how do you genuinely get participation at the local level, right, so it's not just about allowing everyone to do whatever they think, that can inform from the lived experience how we design better policies and also give a sense of ownership.

They were starting to, but yeah.

Yeah.

So a lot of the reason why you have, say, deindustrialization also in the north of this country is due to the lack of investment.

Yeah.

So you have a lot of kind of capital flight from certain areas, and then you have also crumbling public services.

And so one of the metrics is, does any public policy catalyze business investment in an area that otherwise would not have happened?

We call it additionality.

Sounds a bit technical, but it's kind of obvious.

Yeah.

You should not just do a public policy without making sure, at least in capitalism, where firms matter, businesses matter, that they're not kind of doing their bit.

And so one of the metrics was kind of net increase in investment in those states that was not happening.

And that's why also there wasn't an expansion of productive capacity.

Factories were closing, so on and so forth.

However, your point, which is a point I have written a lot about, is how do we then make sure that when that investment does happen-

which was not happening in the red states, that the benefits are truly shared.

So that's the fourth element of the compass that I talk about, reward sharing.

And what I try to do in the book, by the way, is not just kind of pull out some compass with five random elements, is to actually show

Why those elements, directionality, co-creation, sharing rewards, sharing knowledge and transparency are critical and then having examples globally where it's happening, but just one element at a time.

There's no sum bigger than the parts.