Professor Mariana Mazzucato

There's no transformation.

There's no scale because we're kind of just winging it.

So even though there's good examples that should give us hope, how do we transform that into the system, how the system actually works?

I think it's a combination of both.

So if you look at the macro data, which is the data that's actually available, we don't have really, really refined kind of state level and like quarterly data.

And I do think it is also about quarters, like figures were starting to really kind of go up before the election and maybe people hadn't

felt it yet.

But there's also the question, would they ever have?

So most of the IRA was done through tax incentives.

That's the other thing.

In order to get it through Congress, to get the Republicans to vote for it, it was all about tax, right?

Which ultimately is about reducing the costs of

of companies so that they will invest.

But unless they're really reinvesting those profits, if they're doing what they have done for so many years in the US, which is just to buy back shares, to boost stock prices, stock options, and executive pay, which is a key driver of inequality, then you have a problem.

And on that, Biden was very courageous.

This is what Trump then reversed, an act that gave a huge amount of subsidy to American semiconductor companies.

on condition that they reinvest those profits instead of just share buybacks and dividend payouts, the kind of Thames Water, Carillion model here, that they improve working conditions and that they use energy-efficient supply chains.

So this was what Biden was trying to do.

He was saying it's not just about recovery.

It's not just about investment.