Robert Pape

And because once you believe that, and then it's just a matter of, well, what are the tools of the punishment, and do we have some smarter ways to do it, and so forth.

But once you believe that it's punishment who's going to get states to give up these mass, topple governments, give up their weapons of mass destruction, once you believe it's that,

You're going down all the wrong roads.

And that's what all this work really, really has shown.

And that's why if you want to win, when we stopped the Bosnian civil war, we didn't do it through punishment.

We did it through hammer and anvil, basically bombing to win lays out the strategy for this.

So we won.

We stopped the Bosnian civil war.

The punishment was going to fail.

That punishment was going to fail.

Yeah, yeah.

It's the other punishment of the regime.

So, again, there's a couple different detailed ways or specific strategies.

But if I'm talking to President Trump here, I'm going above the details because he wants face-to-face like I'm talking to you.

President Trump, the big issue here –

And you yourself have said you don't understand why is that punishment is not working.

You try to punish the regime.

It's not working.

It's making them harder.

You now have the blockade and you're trying to punish the economy, the society.