Rory Sutherland

Artisan, yep.

artists like mine, Reggie, and a bunch of others, run on top of Salesforce.

So which of those plays do you think is the right one?

Re-engineer CRM from the bottom up, like I think Day is doing, like Adio is doing, build a whole stack, or sit on top of Salesforce, do the agentic part well, but rely on them for the core CRM functionality?

Which is the right bet?

I think that's actually the answer, Jason, because it's not that you can't run on top of Salesforce and just be the agentic layer, but just as in SaaS era, to do that, you need either the data to be clean when you come in, or you need to be able to afford the cost of cleaning the data, figuring out the data structure.

If you're doing a $200,000 deal on top of a $5 million Salesforce instance, that all works.

If you're selling a 10 grand agent on top of messy data structure from a small Salesforce instance, you just don't have the budget to do it.

So I think you're exactly right.

At the SMB stage, you probably will buy the integrated thing.

But I do believe there will be a very compelling business selling agents relying on the CRM Salesforce infrastructure for a long time to come.

Is it still a 50x ARR?

Look, we were early investors in HubSpot.

I love those guys.

I love Brian, even though he's not there.

I love Dharmesh.

I don't know the new team.

I was not the board member.

I've always thought he's super smart technically, Dharmesh.

So if they get done what they need to get done, they should be fine because distribution still has an advantage.