Ross Douthat

That's true.

They are handling the ICE situation in a way that seems only popular.

Good.

But why do you think that is?

Because it seems like, okay, so there's a basic pro-life problem of how do you persuade the moderate, the uncertain, the lukewarm person.

But then it seems like what you're describing is a concrete internal Republican coalition problem.

And this is not a new thing, I should stress, by the way.

For a long time, pro-life activists have said,

OK, maybe our issue, you know, is is, you know, doesn't poll incredibly well, but neither do tax cuts for the rich.

And the Republican Party is happy to, you know, more comfortable passing tax cuts for the rich than protecting the unborn.

So this is not a new issue.

But it does seem like there is this sort of energy inside the Trump White House where it's like we have to take these steps on immigration and we don't care how they poll.

Why is abortion different?

Just to clarify, this was pardons of pro-life protesters who were arrested and convicted.

I guess I'm interested, though, in the extent to which it's not just about the administration itself, but also about...

the kind of conservative coalition it's leading, right?

You have not been making religious arguments for abortion, but it is, again, excuse me, we have not been, definitely haven't been making religious arguments for abortion, but you haven't been making- Those are the worst.

But you haven't been making explicitly religious arguments against abortion, but it is no secret, we're here on the campus of a Catholic university, that opposition to abortion is very often linked to religious faith.

America as a whole, but even American conservatism has become less religious, more secular, as sort of gender polarization has increased.

Conservatism has become more sort of male coded.