Rutger Bregman

So I really consider that the big betrayal, that kind of hypocrisy, where people claim the moral high ground, but don't actually live up to it.

So I really consider that the big betrayal, that kind of hypocrisy, where people claim the moral high ground, but don't actually live up to it.

So I think that there are two ways to travel. You can travel in time, obviously, or you can travel in space. And if you go to another country, then very often you realize, oh, wow. So there are different ways to doing things, right? And that's just like history. I think the main lesson of studying history is that things can be different. There's nothing inevitable.

So I think that there are two ways to travel. You can travel in time, obviously, or you can travel in space. And if you go to another country, then very often you realize, oh, wow. So there are different ways to doing things, right? And that's just like history. I think the main lesson of studying history is that things can be different. There's nothing inevitable.

about the way we've structured our society and economy right now. I've personally always been fascinated by this question of how radical ideas, seemingly crazy ideas, can over the years and decades become reality, both for better and for worse. Actually, I spent about a year studying the abolitionist movement, mainly the British abolitionist movement, because that was the most successful one.

about the way we've structured our society and economy right now. I've personally always been fascinated by this question of how radical ideas, seemingly crazy ideas, can over the years and decades become reality, both for better and for worse. Actually, I spent about a year studying the abolitionist movement, mainly the British abolitionist movement, because that was the most successful one.

And what you realize if you go back to, say, the year 1750, and you would have stood on a street corner in London or Pennsylvania or New York, and you would have said, abolish the slave trade, abolish slavery, most people would have said, you're utterly nuts. That could never happen, and we really need this. This is like…

And what you realize if you go back to, say, the year 1750, and you would have stood on a street corner in London or Pennsylvania or New York, and you would have said, abolish the slave trade, abolish slavery, most people would have said, you're utterly nuts. That could never happen, and we really need this. This is like…

fundamental to our economy and then obviously it took many many decades and it started with a small group of really committed black and white abolitionists but it does happen so i've always been fascinated by those processes how the how the crazy can become inevitable what did they do well like what was it that made their movement as successful as it was

fundamental to our economy and then obviously it took many many decades and it started with a small group of really committed black and white abolitionists but it does happen so i've always been fascinated by those processes how the how the crazy can become inevitable what did they do well like what was it that made their movement as successful as it was

You know, you could write a very long book about that. I mean, that's what you do. That's exactly what you do. So as I was studying, in particular, the British abolitionist movement, I was like, this is almost like a self-help book for modern day activists and revolutionaries. Because there are so many lessons we can learn from it. One of the first big lessons is that It takes a coalition.

You know, you could write a very long book about that. I mean, that's what you do. That's exactly what you do. So as I was studying, in particular, the British abolitionist movement, I was like, this is almost like a self-help book for modern day activists and revolutionaries. Because there are so many lessons we can learn from it. One of the first big lessons is that It takes a coalition.

So very often these days, people are, I think, too purist about their ideals, right? They only want to work together with people who are exactly on the same side. But then you study some of these great movements and you realize that they were actually coalitions of people who very often disagreed. vehemently about pretty fundamental things.

So very often these days, people are, I think, too purist about their ideals, right? They only want to work together with people who are exactly on the same side. But then you study some of these great movements and you realize that they were actually coalitions of people who very often disagreed. vehemently about pretty fundamental things.

In this case, it all started with the Quakers, which was a very weird, radical Christian sect. They didn't get much done for a long time until they started working together with the evangelicals. This was in the day when evangelicals were not just on TV trying to make money. So that's one really important lesson.

In this case, it all started with the Quakers, which was a very weird, radical Christian sect. They didn't get much done for a long time until they started working together with the evangelicals. This was in the day when evangelicals were not just on TV trying to make money. So that's one really important lesson.

Another one that is, I think, very relevant today is that in history, very often the right things happen for the wrong reasons. So I really had this epiphany as I was studying the life of Thomas Clarkson, who was one of the main British abolitionists. And He was trying to make the argument in Westminster, in the British Parliament, that the slave trade ought to be abolished.

Another one that is, I think, very relevant today is that in history, very often the right things happen for the wrong reasons. So I really had this epiphany as I was studying the life of Thomas Clarkson, who was one of the main British abolitionists. And He was trying to make the argument in Westminster, in the British Parliament, that the slave trade ought to be abolished.

And from a modern-day perspective, you would say, well, obviously, your most powerful argument is that this is the most immoral system that ever existed, right? The historians of the future will judge us very harshly for this. Well, actually, that didn't work at all. What Thomas Clarkson did discover is that once he started advocating for the suffering of white sailors on these ships...

And from a modern-day perspective, you would say, well, obviously, your most powerful argument is that this is the most immoral system that ever existed, right? The historians of the future will judge us very harshly for this. Well, actually, that didn't work at all. What Thomas Clarkson did discover is that once he started advocating for the suffering of white sailors on these ships...