Rutger Bregman

who were dying in droves. Then all the politicians were suddenly paying attention, right? And that was a really powerful political argument.

who were dying in droves. Then all the politicians were suddenly paying attention, right? And that was a really powerful political argument.

Yeah, so my very first book was called Utopia for Realists, and it was about all these crazy ideas like, can't we just abolish poverty by giving everyone money, which is called a universal basic income? Can't we abolish all borders around the globe? Can't we move to a much more participatory form of democracy? And at some point, I started to think, what do all these crazy ideas have in common?

Yeah, so my very first book was called Utopia for Realists, and it was about all these crazy ideas like, can't we just abolish poverty by giving everyone money, which is called a universal basic income? Can't we abolish all borders around the globe? Can't we move to a much more participatory form of democracy? And at some point, I started to think, what do all these crazy ideas have in common?

Well, it's a different way of looking at humans. It's a more hopeful and more optimistic view of human nature. There's this old theory which says that humans deep down are just fundamentally selfish. It's often called veneer theory, the idea that civilization is just a thin veneer and that below that lies raw human nature. And I think the problem with that theory is...

Well, it's a different way of looking at humans. It's a more hopeful and more optimistic view of human nature. There's this old theory which says that humans deep down are just fundamentally selfish. It's often called veneer theory, the idea that civilization is just a thin veneer and that below that lies raw human nature. And I think the problem with that theory is...

It's not just that I think it's wrong. The biggest problem is that it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because once you start assuming the worst in other people, that's how you're going to design your whole society. You're going to have a society with a lot of bureaucracies, with a lot of cameras, with a lot of police. And you're going to bring out the worst in people.

It's not just that I think it's wrong. The biggest problem is that it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because once you start assuming the worst in other people, that's how you're going to design your whole society. You're going to have a society with a lot of bureaucracies, with a lot of cameras, with a lot of police. And you're going to bring out the worst in people.

You're going to create the kind of people that your theory presupposed. So...

You're going to create the kind of people that your theory presupposed. So...

obviously you know humans are capable of the of the most terrible atrocities we do things that penguins would never think of doing right um concentration camps genocides apartheid you name it but then on the other hand we're also um capable of incredible altruism and i think that you know shifting that perspective a little bit and assume and assuming the best in people and also designing our our systems of government of companies you name it around that um

obviously you know humans are capable of the of the most terrible atrocities we do things that penguins would never think of doing right um concentration camps genocides apartheid you name it but then on the other hand we're also um capable of incredible altruism and i think that you know shifting that perspective a little bit and assume and assuming the best in people and also designing our our systems of government of companies you name it around that um

could be a great way of making this world a much better place.

could be a great way of making this world a much better place.

Well, here's an interesting story, Trevor. So there are two species of primates who are like 99% genetically similar to us. On the one hand, you got the chimpanzees who indeed behave pretty much like you just described. So like a tribe of chimpanzees meets another tribe of chimpanzees that they never met before, you know, and it can get pretty violent.

Well, here's an interesting story, Trevor. So there are two species of primates who are like 99% genetically similar to us. On the one hand, you got the chimpanzees who indeed behave pretty much like you just described. So like a tribe of chimpanzees meets another tribe of chimpanzees that they never met before, you know, and it can get pretty violent.

We also have the bonobos, and they're pretty much the opposite. So if two groups of bonobos meet each other, what they'll have is an orgy. That's basically their way of saying hi. So this has been a question that's been asked by primatologists for a long time. Are we the chimpanzees or the bonobos? Maybe we're both.

We also have the bonobos, and they're pretty much the opposite. So if two groups of bonobos meet each other, what they'll have is an orgy. That's basically their way of saying hi. So this has been a question that's been asked by primatologists for a long time. Are we the chimpanzees or the bonobos? Maybe we're both.

Yeah, well, that's the problem if you write a book about human decency is that you have to go on for hundreds of pages about all the terrible things we do. Look, for me, it all starts with this question, how have we conquered the globe, right? Why have humans been so successful compared to other species? And for a long time, we like to believe that it is because we are so smart, right?

Yeah, well, that's the problem if you write a book about human decency is that you have to go on for hundreds of pages about all the terrible things we do. Look, for me, it all starts with this question, how have we conquered the globe, right? Why have humans been so successful compared to other species? And for a long time, we like to believe that it is because we are so smart, right?