Ruth Ben-Ghiat

And so the Pope becomes the target.

But this is not... So if Vance has to be... If the future of MAGA is embedded with...

in bed with white Christian nationalism, then Vance's stance is not helping.

It's not helping.

Yes, and it's also the same.

My mother's from Scotland, and they're Presbyterian.

And there was a black sheep in the family, and he converted to Catholicism, and no one spoke to him.

Well, two things stand out.

One is that you saw there were people behind him and there was somebody gesticulating and talking.

And they decided to completely ignore the sleeping.

And they just carried on because they're not in denial.

They know exactly what's happening, but they can't acknowledge it.

They can't wake him up.

They can't acknowledge that he's not listening to them, that almost he's a figurehead just sleeping there because that would puncture the cult because their job is to be subservient to him.

So if something happens, you just carry on, right?

You just carry on.

And it also reminds me of late communism in USSR, where there were a series of leaders who were not very healthy.

And there was all kinds of criminal, popular criminal.

Everybody became a criminologist.

Like today, his eyes are slightly less open.