Sean Carroll

Complexity happens when there's a lot of stuff going on and those things interact with each other so that in some sense the whole system of interacting complicated things going on forms a whole. There is some notion of the system arising out of the smaller pieces in a way that still makes the pieces be important.

So it's different than the very, very simple-minded notions of emergence that we have sometimes in physics. where you have, you know, atoms coming together to make a fluid. That's absolutely true. You have many, many, many atoms, and they come together and they interact to make a fluid.

So it's different than the very, very simple-minded notions of emergence that we have sometimes in physics. where you have, you know, atoms coming together to make a fluid. That's absolutely true. You have many, many, many atoms, and they come together and they interact to make a fluid.

But then once you have that fluid description as a gas or a liquid or whatever, you can forget about the atoms, right? You can sort of average over what all the atoms are doing and get a pretty good higher-level description of what's happening. In a complex system, the little pieces that come together to give you the whole continue to matter.

But then once you have that fluid description as a gas or a liquid or whatever, you can forget about the atoms, right? You can sort of average over what all the atoms are doing and get a pretty good higher-level description of what's happening. In a complex system, the little pieces that come together to give you the whole continue to matter.

In a country, a nation state, the individual people continue to matter. In an economy, the consumers and producers matter as well as the rules and regulations that guide their actions. And today's system, today's complex system that we'll be talking about is the Earth's oceans.

In a country, a nation state, the individual people continue to matter. In an economy, the consumers and producers matter as well as the rules and regulations that guide their actions. And today's system, today's complex system that we'll be talking about is the Earth's oceans.

And they are themselves complex, but of course they also play an enormous role in the complex system, which is the Earth itself and the Earth's biosphere in particular. You know, you've all heard the numbers. Most of the Earth's surface is covered with water, a little bit over 70% of it. It's—the oceans are where most of our water is on Earth.

And they are themselves complex, but of course they also play an enormous role in the complex system, which is the Earth itself and the Earth's biosphere in particular. You know, you've all heard the numbers. Most of the Earth's surface is covered with water, a little bit over 70% of it. It's—the oceans are where most of our water is on Earth.

Some of it is on rivers and lakes or in the atmosphere, but the oceans is most of it. And you may also have heard that our climate is changing. It is completely unsurprising that the oceans have a huge effect on our climate. And it is also completely unsurprising that we humans are having a huge effect on our oceans. So today's guest, Helen Chersky, is going to tell us about that.

Some of it is on rivers and lakes or in the atmosphere, but the oceans is most of it. And you may also have heard that our climate is changing. It is completely unsurprising that the oceans have a huge effect on our climate. And it is also completely unsurprising that we humans are having a huge effect on our oceans. So today's guest, Helen Chersky, is going to tell us about that.

She is a physicist turned oceanographer, perfect kind of mindscape guest. And she has a book called The Blue Machine, How the Ocean Works. And the blueness, of course, is something you've probably already heard about, about the ocean. The machine aspect is because the oceans are not just sitting there. They're moving. There are many moving parts, as complex systems want to do.

She is a physicist turned oceanographer, perfect kind of mindscape guest. And she has a book called The Blue Machine, How the Ocean Works. And the blueness, of course, is something you've probably already heard about, about the ocean. The machine aspect is because the oceans are not just sitting there. They're moving. There are many moving parts, as complex systems want to do.

And also there is input and output, right? The oceans are interacting with the atmosphere, with the radiation from the sun, with the tectonic motions of the Earth's plates. And of course, then the oceans act back on the Earth itself, the life in the oceans, and then the life here on land. So it's a wonderful example of, you know, a good science problem, a good example of a complex system.

And also there is input and output, right? The oceans are interacting with the atmosphere, with the radiation from the sun, with the tectonic motions of the Earth's plates. And of course, then the oceans act back on the Earth itself, the life in the oceans, and then the life here on land. So it's a wonderful example of, you know, a good science problem, a good example of a complex system.

And of course, a system that means a lot to us human beings in our lives now and in the immediate future. So understanding it a little bit better, understanding the challenges that we human beings have put on our oceans is an important task. So let's go. Music Ellen Chersky, welcome to the Mindscape Podcast.

And of course, a system that means a lot to us human beings in our lives now and in the immediate future. So understanding it a little bit better, understanding the challenges that we human beings have put on our oceans is an important task. So let's go. Music Ellen Chersky, welcome to the Mindscape Podcast.

So I thought I would begin inspired by a little mention in your book. You know, there's this saying that goes around that we know more about the moon than we know about the deep sea ocean or the bottom of the ocean. So how do you feel about that saying?

So I thought I would begin inspired by a little mention in your book. You know, there's this saying that goes around that we know more about the moon than we know about the deep sea ocean or the bottom of the ocean. So how do you feel about that saying?

Well, it's also a good reminder in astronomy terms, what we would say is the time domain is very important here. It's not, there is no snapshot you could possibly get of the deep sea that you would say, okay, that's it, we're doing pretty well.