Sean Illing

and what they fear and what they're chasing after, it has to have some impact on the public discourse, which is still influenced by political media, even if it's not as significant as it once was. Like TV, though in different ways, it's just not a space for deliberation. And for that reason, it's not good for what we do. It probably doesn't promote a healthy democratic system

and what they fear and what they're chasing after, it has to have some impact on the public discourse, which is still influenced by political media, even if it's not as significant as it once was. Like TV, though in different ways, it's just not a space for deliberation. And for that reason, it's not good for what we do. It probably doesn't promote a healthy democratic system

culture but at the same time i guess that's sort of the paradox that we're getting at in the book right twitter is democratic in the sense that it's pretty wide open And if the result of that openness is, you know, a lot of bile and garbage, I guess that's just what democracy looks like sometimes. But the feedback is so immediate and so intense.

culture but at the same time i guess that's sort of the paradox that we're getting at in the book right twitter is democratic in the sense that it's pretty wide open And if the result of that openness is, you know, a lot of bile and garbage, I guess that's just what democracy looks like sometimes. But the feedback is so immediate and so intense.

It's just very hard to think honestly and carefully because it's just, you're just scared shitless about what's going to come back your way. At least I am.

It's just very hard to think honestly and carefully because it's just, you're just scared shitless about what's going to come back your way. At least I am.

We're trying to think of democracy as a communicative culture, right? We think of democracy as a decision to open up the public sphere and let people speak, think, and decide what ought to be done. So in that sense, it is a culture of open communication. And thinking of it as a culture rather than constellation of practices or institutions is not a pedantic or academic thing.

We're trying to think of democracy as a communicative culture, right? We think of democracy as a decision to open up the public sphere and let people speak, think, and decide what ought to be done. So in that sense, it is a culture of open communication. And thinking of it as a culture rather than constellation of practices or institutions is not a pedantic or academic thing.

We're trying to emphasize the open-endedness of it. The fact that it's always in a state of becoming. And the fact that you can say that a state is democratic and the fact that that doesn't necessarily tell you how it's governed is pretty instructive. It's not for nothing that fascism has only ever emerged out of democratic societies.

We're trying to emphasize the open-endedness of it. The fact that it's always in a state of becoming. And the fact that you can say that a state is democratic and the fact that that doesn't necessarily tell you how it's governed is pretty instructive. It's not for nothing that fascism has only ever emerged out of democratic societies.

There's something about the collision of mass media and mass politics that made fascism possible. If fascism can emerge out of a democratic society, anything can. And I just think when you talk about this tendency to conflate liberalism and democracy,

There's something about the collision of mass media and mass politics that made fascism possible. If fascism can emerge out of a democratic society, anything can. And I just think when you talk about this tendency to conflate liberalism and democracy,

obscures the fact that democracy really is an unwieldy thing and without something like liberalism to check some of its excesses it can spin in very unpredictable directions and there's all kinds of examples of that throughout history and even today spend another moment on that distinction between liberalism and democracy because i think for a lot of people they they really are quite conflated what would an illiberal democracy look like they look like hungary

obscures the fact that democracy really is an unwieldy thing and without something like liberalism to check some of its excesses it can spin in very unpredictable directions and there's all kinds of examples of that throughout history and even today spend another moment on that distinction between liberalism and democracy because i think for a lot of people they they really are quite conflated what would an illiberal democracy look like they look like hungary

It may look like Weimar Germany, right? It may look like Russia. I've said this elsewhere. Russia is kind of a police state now. But, you know, I mean, Russia was a kind of a liberal democracy in a sense that Putin was pretty popular, overwhelmingly popular. I think he still is, though this is not something I track very closely.

It may look like Weimar Germany, right? It may look like Russia. I've said this elsewhere. Russia is kind of a police state now. But, you know, I mean, Russia was a kind of a liberal democracy in a sense that Putin was pretty popular, overwhelmingly popular. I think he still is, though this is not something I track very closely.

And so even if he's a tyrant, and surely he is, he's also a populist. And we wouldn't think of a state like that, a country like that, as a democracy. And it's not in a sense that these are places that are kind of shape-shifting into autocracies. But to the extent those regimes or those leaders are popular, to the extent that the publics in those places have been convinced...

And so even if he's a tyrant, and surely he is, he's also a populist. And we wouldn't think of a state like that, a country like that, as a democracy. And it's not in a sense that these are places that are kind of shape-shifting into autocracies. But to the extent those regimes or those leaders are popular, to the extent that the publics in those places have been convinced...

that they should follow their leaders wherever they take them, they are democratic in some fundamental sense. So tell me then about what you call the paradox of democracy. Well, it's the fact that the very thing that makes democracy possible, which is wide open, free expression, that while that's a condition of democracy, it can also be hijacked and turned against it.

that they should follow their leaders wherever they take them, they are democratic in some fundamental sense. So tell me then about what you call the paradox of democracy. Well, it's the fact that the very thing that makes democracy possible, which is wide open, free expression, that while that's a condition of democracy, it can also be hijacked and turned against it.