Sean Illing

And that's what fascism is, right? So the thing that makes it possible is also the thing that threatens it from within. And that tension or that paradox is baked into the structure of democracy if you see it.

And that's what fascism is, right? So the thing that makes it possible is also the thing that threatens it from within. And that tension or that paradox is baked into the structure of democracy if you see it.

in that way right there's just no transcending that right if you're going to open up society then you're opening the culture up to all manner of persuasion all manner of rhetoric the the inspirational leaders and the artist and the demagogues and the any other manner of bad faith actor you can imagine, right? Like it is a free-for-all in that way, right? And so that's just what it is.

in that way right there's just no transcending that right if you're going to open up society then you're opening the culture up to all manner of persuasion all manner of rhetoric the the inspirational leaders and the artist and the demagogues and the any other manner of bad faith actor you can imagine, right? Like it is a free-for-all in that way, right? And so that's just what it is.

And that's what makes it, I think, a paradox, right? You just simply cannot get out of it, right? The very thing that makes it possible is also the thing that perpetually threatens it. And in that sense, democracy is just sort of situated on a precipice always.

And that's what makes it, I think, a paradox, right? You just simply cannot get out of it, right? The very thing that makes it possible is also the thing that perpetually threatens it. And in that sense, democracy is just sort of situated on a precipice always.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, we have a line in the book where we say, our ideology is our technology, our technology is our culture, and culture always precedes politics. It's really just a way of saying that politics flows out of culture, and culture often flows out of technology. Ooh, tell me more about that idea that our ideology is our technology.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, we have a line in the book where we say, our ideology is our technology, our technology is our culture, and culture always precedes politics. It's really just a way of saying that politics flows out of culture, and culture often flows out of technology. Ooh, tell me more about that idea that our ideology is our technology.

Well, it's about the biases of our technology imposing themselves on our politics and becoming a thing that actually governs it, right? So like, One of the knocks on people like McLuhan was that he's too deterministic. He's like a straight-up, hard, technological determinist.

Well, it's about the biases of our technology imposing themselves on our politics and becoming a thing that actually governs it, right? So like, One of the knocks on people like McLuhan was that he's too deterministic. He's like a straight-up, hard, technological determinist.

I'm not quite that, but I guess I am a soft determinist in the sense that I think human beings, if not quite a tabula rasa... are heavily conditioned creatures. I don't want to say that context is everything, but it's kind of everything. And if you tinker with something as fundamental as our media environment, then you also tinker with how we structure our world.

I'm not quite that, but I guess I am a soft determinist in the sense that I think human beings, if not quite a tabula rasa... are heavily conditioned creatures. I don't want to say that context is everything, but it's kind of everything. And if you tinker with something as fundamental as our media environment, then you also tinker with how we structure our world.

You tinker with our whole sense-making apparatus. You tinker with our categories of thought. And on some level, you tinker with the core experience of being human in the world.

You tinker with our whole sense-making apparatus. You tinker with our categories of thought. And on some level, you tinker with the core experience of being human in the world.

Yeah, you know, so McLuhan...

Yeah, you know, so McLuhan...

he comes along and says don't just look at what's being expressed look at the ways it's being expressed and then postman says don't just look at the way things are being expressed look at how the way things are expressed determines what's actually expressible and you're getting at this and this is partly why postman is more interesting to me as a political person because he's really just asking

he comes along and says don't just look at what's being expressed look at the ways it's being expressed and then postman says don't just look at the way things are being expressed look at how the way things are expressed determines what's actually expressible and you're getting at this and this is partly why postman is more interesting to me as a political person because he's really just asking

does our media environment even allow a serious public discourse? And I think it's maybe in the first or second chapter of Amusing Ourselves to Death, and this gets at the ideology point, I think, because he's talking about Reagan and William Taft and how William Taft could not have been president in 1980. Why is that?

does our media environment even allow a serious public discourse? And I think it's maybe in the first or second chapter of Amusing Ourselves to Death, and this gets at the ideology point, I think, because he's talking about Reagan and William Taft and how William Taft could not have been president in 1980. Why is that?