Shekhar Natarajan

Yeah.

So interesting building on that.

There's always been value based on something that is life.

And whether it's a body that dies or time that runs out,

I don't know, I think there are certain ways in which we can't cheat time.

Oh, God.

No?

Oh, that's such a grim idea.

You can tell it wasn't a man that came up with that.

No, no.

You think so?

Okay, well, I think he was talking about it in the idea of being safely held in a protected psychological environment where things are predictable and familiar.

So you're safe, but you simultaneously have an open horizon.

If you can't get through it, like, if you're just in a...

Okay.

Clearly hit something in my psyche.

Well, okay, Allen Ginsberg, the beat poet from the 60s, he used to be a big advocate for psychedelic expansion of consciousness, and he used to describe his favorite headspace.

Again, talk about the ideal psychological state.

as buoyant, floating attention, like a rubber duck in the bathtub of the universe.

Maybe you like that one better.