Sian Pattenden

And as you say, it's not just men, it's women as well who don't like her in other women gatekeepers.

And that was fine.

Yes, let's.

Because I think that Elizabeth Wurzel is a poster girl for US 90s.

Yeah.

I think she's really closely aligned.

Say she is marketed here as a pop star.

It looks like a pop star's written the book.

Let's say she looks like someone who could have been in Hole or one of the many ones.

And those sorts of people who lived a kind of life where they wanted to be on the periphery, it was a bit rock and roll.

They were in arts or music and they were American at that time from about 92 to 99.

The Americans took it really, really seriously.

So I was talking to you about if you ever went to the Reading Festival, which was incredibly US heavy bands at that time because it's post-grunge, very rock, but also you're getting this infiltration of hip hop and we're all like smarties.

We're going to bounce up and down on top of the pops.

You've got UK lot who do take it a bit seriously, but they just get bladdered and just really, really silly.

And you've got the American lot who just take it really, really, you know, everything is difficult.

Everything is torn from the soul.

Everything is so sincere and so authentic.

Yeah.

There isn't an edge to take it off.