Steve Inskeep

Oh, meaning that they were preparing for a trade war with China.

Instead, they have one with the United States.

I want to talk that through.

Carney is essentially saying the U.S.

set up these rules for the global economy and also for human rights and conduct among nations.

It was always partly a fiction, he says.

I believe he uses the word fiction, but it kind of worked.

But now he says the U.S.

has stripped the fiction away.

It's a naked power grab or great

powers, he says, are making a naked power grab.

So it's done and smaller nations have to defend themselves.

I think it's all in there.

Everything is in there.

Freedom of the seas, all manner of things.

You guys aren't even pretending anymore.

So smaller nations have to fend for themselves.

Here's the next question, though.

You're talking about that system in the past tense, which may well be appropriate, and Carney talked about it in the past tense.

Do you believe the next president, after President Trump, could put that system back again?