Steven Hahn

Well, historically, I think there have been important moments in the past where social movements have, even if they haven't entirely won or were able to gain political power as we think about abolitionism, which took on the most intractable power in the United States. And I think about abolitionism as black abolitionism,

Well, historically, I think there have been important moments in the past where social movements have, even if they haven't entirely won or were able to gain political power as we think about abolitionism, which took on the most intractable power in the United States. And I think about abolitionism as black abolitionism,

And about enslaved people who managed to take down a system of plantation slavery that had created the wealthiest people in the United States and people who owned disproportionate power. But Lincoln emerges in your book almost as a villain. Well, I don't see Lincoln as a villain. What I was trying to do there was to talk about some of the limitations.

And about enslaved people who managed to take down a system of plantation slavery that had created the wealthiest people in the United States and people who owned disproportionate power. But Lincoln emerges in your book almost as a villain. Well, I don't see Lincoln as a villain. What I was trying to do there was to talk about some of the limitations.

And I don't see putting Lincoln, you know, well, that he's just a racist because, you know, I think that's not a useful way of understanding Lincoln. If anything, you know, you see somebody who... grew and changed in very, very significant ways. But at the same time, he kind of embodied a lot of the contradictions about what a national family is and who would be included in that family.

And I don't see putting Lincoln, you know, well, that he's just a racist because, you know, I think that's not a useful way of understanding Lincoln. If anything, you know, you see somebody who... grew and changed in very, very significant ways. But at the same time, he kind of embodied a lot of the contradictions about what a national family is and who would be included in that family.

I don't think there's any such thing as a pure movement. As a friend of mine put it, you know, if you want to build a movement where everyone has to fit through the eye of a needle, forget it. And, you know, frankly, most social movements don't last very long. But if you're going to build a movement, which I think about in a large way of consequence, if you're serious—

I don't think there's any such thing as a pure movement. As a friend of mine put it, you know, if you want to build a movement where everyone has to fit through the eye of a needle, forget it. And, you know, frankly, most social movements don't last very long. But if you're going to build a movement, which I think about in a large way of consequence, if you're serious—

And if power is actually what you're interested in, and change, and using power for the point of change that will appeal to large numbers of people who want change and whose lives can actually be better. I think a central issue is to confront this. You know, it's that I understand why you think that. And...

And if power is actually what you're interested in, and change, and using power for the point of change that will appeal to large numbers of people who want change and whose lives can actually be better. I think a central issue is to confront this. You know, it's that I understand why you think that. And...

Maybe there are ways that we can move, recognize that no one's going to be fully changed, and that you're always going to be protesting this shit, because there's no such thing as a victory, even if you like your side winning, that there's going to be ongoing struggles, ongoing need for vigilance, ongoing need for self-criticism.

Maybe there are ways that we can move, recognize that no one's going to be fully changed, and that you're always going to be protesting this shit, because there's no such thing as a victory, even if you like your side winning, that there's going to be ongoing struggles, ongoing need for vigilance, ongoing need for self-criticism.

And we have to find ways of reckoning our ideals and ambitions and visions and utopianism. People are not going to put themselves on the line for a world that they can't quite imagine. And I think that is a basis for something bigger. It's always going to be an ongoing process of rethinking, interrogating, and changing, being open to change.

And we have to find ways of reckoning our ideals and ambitions and visions and utopianism. People are not going to put themselves on the line for a world that they can't quite imagine. And I think that is a basis for something bigger. It's always going to be an ongoing process of rethinking, interrogating, and changing, being open to change.

Well, first of all, I think Tocqueville's Democracy in America would be a good place to start. Not going into it thinking of it as the iconic text, but going into it thinking about it as someone who is an observer from the outside looking in and who has both admiration and reservations. Elizabeth Hinton's book, From the War on Poverty to the War on Crime, is

Well, first of all, I think Tocqueville's Democracy in America would be a good place to start. Not going into it thinking of it as the iconic text, but going into it thinking about it as someone who is an observer from the outside looking in and who has both admiration and reservations. Elizabeth Hinton's book, From the War on Poverty to the War on Crime, is

which focuses on the 1960s into the early 1970s and is, I think, a very, very interesting way of understanding how illiberal sensibilities kind of infuse their way into what are major modern liberal projects and pave the way for mass incarceration, which I learned a lot from.

which focuses on the 1960s into the early 1970s and is, I think, a very, very interesting way of understanding how illiberal sensibilities kind of infuse their way into what are major modern liberal projects and pave the way for mass incarceration, which I learned a lot from.

And the third book is a book by Lawrence Powell called Troubled Memory, Anne Levy, the Holocaust, and David Dukes, Louisiana. It's an extraordinary story about a woman who was part of the only whole family to make it out of the Lotz ghetto. And they end up in New Orleans.

And the third book is a book by Lawrence Powell called Troubled Memory, Anne Levy, the Holocaust, and David Dukes, Louisiana. It's an extraordinary story about a woman who was part of the only whole family to make it out of the Lotz ghetto. And they end up in New Orleans.