Steven Hahn

Absolutely. I think that's right. But I also feel, you know, I sort of finished the book with an example of

Absolutely. I think that's right. But I also feel, you know, I sort of finished the book with an example of

This movement in a county in East Texas in the late 19th century where, you know, someone who was part of a community of enslavers and someone who was part of a community of enslaved came together for basically opportunistic reasons because they shared grievance with what was going on and they knew they couldn't win local office without forming some kind of coalition.

This movement in a county in East Texas in the late 19th century where, you know, someone who was part of a community of enslavers and someone who was part of a community of enslaved came together for basically opportunistic reasons because they shared grievance with what was going on and they knew they couldn't win local office without forming some kind of coalition.

But they actually began to do it little by little. They learned a lot about each other. And in fact, over many years, they came to establish their own republic in the biracial republic where the white people who were the insurgents learned a lot about the needs of the black community. And the black community was able to engage with what was 30 or 40 percent of of the white community.

But they actually began to do it little by little. They learned a lot about each other. And in fact, over many years, they came to establish their own republic in the biracial republic where the white people who were the insurgents learned a lot about the needs of the black community. And the black community was able to engage with what was 30 or 40 percent of of the white community.

And even then they call themselves populists in the 1890s. And even when the populists nationally lost, they were still winning. And, you know, in the end, they were gunned down.

And even then they call themselves populists in the 1890s. And even when the populists nationally lost, they were still winning. And, you know, in the end, they were gunned down.

But I think it's an example of the way in which really meaningful coalitions And political connections are forged, recognizing things that are beneficial to everybody.

But I think it's an example of the way in which really meaningful coalitions And political connections are forged, recognizing things that are beneficial to everybody.

You know, one of the things we have to remember is that the sense of rights that people can enjoy, the sense of rights that people are entitled to, were products of very, very divisive and very, very, in some cases, violent struggles. And that the period of time that we're talking about when this was true is pretty short.

You know, one of the things we have to remember is that the sense of rights that people can enjoy, the sense of rights that people are entitled to, were products of very, very divisive and very, very, in some cases, violent struggles. And that the period of time that we're talking about when this was true is pretty short.

I mean, one of the things I was really trying to do in my book was what I would call de-centering liberalism. The liberal tradition, as I try to argue, is really something that's kind of invented in the 1940s and 1950s and holds on in many remarkable ways. But part of the problem with liberalism is that it never really dealt very well with the issues of power.

I mean, one of the things I was really trying to do in my book was what I would call de-centering liberalism. The liberal tradition, as I try to argue, is really something that's kind of invented in the 1940s and 1950s and holds on in many remarkable ways. But part of the problem with liberalism is that it never really dealt very well with the issues of power.

And therefore, when push comes to shove, they abandon ship or they sort of put together projects and policies that are not going to work or become self-contradictory. if what we're after is some of the things that liberals and liberalism at least say that they're interested in, a more egalitarian society, a world in which globally as well as nationally and locally

And therefore, when push comes to shove, they abandon ship or they sort of put together projects and policies that are not going to work or become self-contradictory. if what we're after is some of the things that liberals and liberalism at least say that they're interested in, a more egalitarian society, a world in which globally as well as nationally and locally

where it's possible for people, regardless of their social, economic, racial, or ethnic background, to pursue a life that is meaningful to them. If we're actually interested in that, as opposed to rhetorically interested in that, then we have to face up to really what liberalism has been inadequate. You write about, in a sense, liberalism's failure to be visionary. And I think that's true.

where it's possible for people, regardless of their social, economic, racial, or ethnic background, to pursue a life that is meaningful to them. If we're actually interested in that, as opposed to rhetorically interested in that, then we have to face up to really what liberalism has been inadequate. You write about, in a sense, liberalism's failure to be visionary. And I think that's true.

What about, you know, what a future could look like? And then the question of how you get there is related to what a future could look like.

What about, you know, what a future could look like? And then the question of how you get there is related to what a future could look like.