Tanya Mosley

To help us understand the criticism, the developments, and implications, we're joined by two distinguished experts, Frank Dobbin, professor of sociology at Harvard University, and Ella Washington, an organizational psychologist and professor at Georgetown University's McDonough School of Business. Welcome to you both. Thank you for having me.

Well, I think it's good for us to start with some basics because I'm not even sure when I'm in conversation with people about DEI if we're talking about the same things because it's become such a broad term. So I think it's great for all of us to start with how you both define DEI. And I'll start with you, Dr. Washington.

Well, I think it's good for us to start with some basics because I'm not even sure when I'm in conversation with people about DEI if we're talking about the same things because it's become such a broad term. So I think it's great for all of us to start with how you both define DEI. And I'll start with you, Dr. Washington.

Well, I think it's good for us to start with some basics because I'm not even sure when I'm in conversation with people about DEI if we're talking about the same things because it's become such a broad term. So I think it's great for all of us to start with how you both define DEI. And I'll start with you, Dr. Washington.

Can you all remind us of the realities for non-white men in corporate America? I mean, corporate America, education, civic life, before those civil rights protections, which was basically another iteration, the earlier iteration of DEI as we know it. I think we have short memories, and 60 years have passed since that legislation was passed. And

Can you all remind us of the realities for non-white men in corporate America? I mean, corporate America, education, civic life, before those civil rights protections, which was basically another iteration, the earlier iteration of DEI as we know it. I think we have short memories, and 60 years have passed since that legislation was passed. And

Can you all remind us of the realities for non-white men in corporate America? I mean, corporate America, education, civic life, before those civil rights protections, which was basically another iteration, the earlier iteration of DEI as we know it. I think we have short memories, and 60 years have passed since that legislation was passed. And

So the current discussion around DEI has become so muddled. I think it would be good for us to have an understanding before those protections on what the realities were in corporate life for people.

So the current discussion around DEI has become so muddled. I think it would be good for us to have an understanding before those protections on what the realities were in corporate life for people.

So the current discussion around DEI has become so muddled. I think it would be good for us to have an understanding before those protections on what the realities were in corporate life for people.

You know, there is this perception, I mean, much like the argument against affirmative action, that DEI allows for preferential treatment of minority groups. And it has come at a cost, meaning that it has turned into reverse discrimination. I'm just wondering, based on the research that both of you all have done, what groups have benefited most from it?

You know, there is this perception, I mean, much like the argument against affirmative action, that DEI allows for preferential treatment of minority groups. And it has come at a cost, meaning that it has turned into reverse discrimination. I'm just wondering, based on the research that both of you all have done, what groups have benefited most from it?

You know, there is this perception, I mean, much like the argument against affirmative action, that DEI allows for preferential treatment of minority groups. And it has come at a cost, meaning that it has turned into reverse discrimination. I'm just wondering, based on the research that both of you all have done, what groups have benefited most from it?

And is there research or data that show patterns of reverse discrimination?

And is there research or data that show patterns of reverse discrimination?

And is there research or data that show patterns of reverse discrimination?

You mentioned those lawsuits from the 70s, reverse discrimination lawsuits that didn't go anywhere. You have also made a point to say that, I mean, basically white nationalist groups have been fighting against the Civil Rights Act and really diversity, equity and inclusion for the last 60 years. What is different now is that this effort is mainstream.

You mentioned those lawsuits from the 70s, reverse discrimination lawsuits that didn't go anywhere. You have also made a point to say that, I mean, basically white nationalist groups have been fighting against the Civil Rights Act and really diversity, equity and inclusion for the last 60 years. What is different now is that this effort is mainstream.

You mentioned those lawsuits from the 70s, reverse discrimination lawsuits that didn't go anywhere. You have also made a point to say that, I mean, basically white nationalist groups have been fighting against the Civil Rights Act and really diversity, equity and inclusion for the last 60 years. What is different now is that this effort is mainstream.

What was the ignition that really set off this effort? Really, it seems like over the last five years or so.