Terry Gross

It must have been so frustrating for so many years to have like fun parts, but really tiny ones like that.

Before we get to how when you were in school, you were bullied all the time and how horrible it was.

Nice tease.

So let's get to the bullied part.

Oh, yes.

So in real life, when you were growing up, it sounds like you didn't have friends in school.

You were bullied in junior high when the bullying was at its worst, and the bathroom and the gym showers were like torture chambers for you.

Were you bullying yourself for being gay?

Were you picking on yourself, taking your cue from everybody else who was picking on you?

They really went for it.

For you, during those years when you were bullied, church was a safe place, and you were very active in it.

You went nearly every day.

There was youth group and Sunday school, after-school tutoring, handbell choir, senior choir, children's choir, where you were the teen assistant.

So it was the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.

Describe the foundation of the church.

But they probably knew you were gay just as the students in your schools knew you were gay.

Yeah, so it must have made it extra confusing when you wanted to be a pastor and you couldn't because it meant you wouldn't be able to act out on your own sexuality because you'd have to be celibate, whereas straight people wouldn't have to be celibate to be a pastor.

The other thing you loved about church was the pageantry, the singing.

The church was like theater for you.

You loved theater.