Terry Gross

When you say they rose in the ranks, you mean within the Nazi groups?

No, although one of the goals of these like anti-fascist, anti-hate groups was to get information, inside information, and send that to the authorities, to the FBI, to the police.

However, these groups also, and I'm talking here about the anti-fascist groups, they also were very distrustful about the FBI and the police, and often for very good reason.

What were those reasons?

One of the things that the anti-fascist groups feared was that the fascist Nazi groups would start their own political parties or embed within the two major parties and eventually try to take over the government through the ballot box.

How far did they get in those plans?

So I want to talk about one of the early spy stories in your book.

And this is like two spies sent in by the anti-Nazi League to infiltrate the Colombians, which is one of the first of these neo-Nazi groups.

And it's based in Atlanta, Georgia.

which is also a hotbed of the Ku Klux Klan.

And they had just, like, reunited, and they burned this, like, huge cross after World War II to say, we're back!

Because they called, they kind of ceased operation during the war.

So the spies were named Stetson Kennedy and Rene Frechtbaum.

They took on new identities to go undercover.

So tell us about the group that they were reporting on.

So what kind of information does he report back?

So that's a success.

Well, we need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you.

If you're just joining us, my guest is Stephen Ross.

His new book is called The Secret War Against Hate, American Resistance to Anti-Semitism and White Supremacy.