Vanessa Grigoriadis
Appearances
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
Because, I mean, you are, like, good at computers? Not even.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
That's really funny. I mean, I think I've lost a couple of hard drives along the way. I'd like to look in there for two. So, okay. So basically we now understand what Bitcoin is. An NFT I know is a digital piece of art that people buy and trade. Now there's this new thing called the meme coin. And the meme coin is just like, you're a person who has fame and you tell your followers like, hey,
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
Trump is even talking about making a national mint now for Bitcoin, right? The idea that like the United States would put in a couple billion dollars into Bitcoin and make the prices go up really high. And I'm sure he owns some of it.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
That's what my friend did. But then she got bored of it because she said in order to get on the exchange, you have to get a bunch of people from different IP addresses to buy into it. And she, I think, realized that was a bit harder.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
Caitlyn Jenner had one. Basically, anybody who has like a little bit of clout can sort of do it.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
Right. And I mean, the scandal that happened was with the Hawk Tua girl, right? The girl who went viral for her dumb joke. And people put millions of dollars into trading this meme coin. And then, you know, the original people who bought it pulled out and everybody was left with nothing in the end.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
There's just something about all of this that feels like it's washing money. It's irresponsible gambling. It's like the world's worst people, the gang leaders or whoever who need to move money from place to place. Like, do you think that's fair? Or do you think that digital currency is just the world's new currency? We all have to get used to it.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
I mean, we've always had speculation bubbles, right? Like the tulip bubble, you know, in Holland and the 1600s and ancient Rome and all these places are always had speculative bubbles. But there's something here that it feels so anti-internet to be so shadowy about it. You know, like every single person has a footprint on the internet. Nobody is anonymous.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
And suddenly now where money's involved, you can be like sort of anonymous with this.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
The other question is if America is just becoming a place where people do a lot of gambling, right? Like their online gambling, which is something that used to not be legal, is all over the place now. People also do quite a bit of Bitcoin trading. People do sports betting in a way that they didn't before.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
Meme stock trading. And if we're just like an addicted country, are we like addicted to gambling? And is this part of it?
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
I mean, there's this sort of influencer culture that's very much about raising up the people who manage to get all of those clicks. And kids think, oh, OK, I can do that, too. But in fact, we're going to become like a nation of drop shippers. Yeah. There's just not a lot of ways, particularly with encroaching AI, to really live out that American dream. I mean, I don't know.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
I'm sure I speak for a lot of people when I say that right now, there's a lot of fear of AI coursing through my veins. There's a lot of fear of the tech bros taking over. And these guys will control not only the government, but they'll control our currency. I mean, do you feel that way?
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
I do have a friend who said, I'm going to start this meme coin. We're all going to get rich. And she did have me also buy $100 of it, but then she got bored of it. But that's like as far as I go with crypto. What is crypto exactly? I assume it's a synonym for Bitcoin. They're both the same thing.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
Yeah, and we already have our phones for that. So thank you so much for coming on to tell us not necessarily how to get rich quick, although if you can buy some Bitcoin and sell it at the right moment, that might be a plan. Ben Wallace wrote this book that is called The Mysterious Mr. Nakamoto about his search for the inventor of Bitcoin. Thanks so much for being on with us, Ben.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
All right. Thanks, everybody. We will be back next week with a new story. And thanks so much for listening.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
But it doesn't, it's not tethered to anything. It's not tethered to like the US dollar. It has no real value. But I guess you could say nothing has value.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
Oh, my God. So wait, there's no way for you to get that back?
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
So, okay. So you then decide that you're going to be on the hunt for the guy who started all of this. Why do we need to know who this guy is? Is there a reason we need to know?
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
Hello, infamous listeners. Thanks so much for being back this week and listening to our show, the Campsite and Sony Music production. We are here this week without Natalie, but we do have Ben Wallace, an old colleague of mine from New York Magazine. He did a story about Terry Richardson that was pretty famous, the guy from the American apparel photographer Sleazebag.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
Right. And so what are like the first steps that you do to try to find this guy?
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
And wait, explain what he looks like because he's just like some middle-aged nerd.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
He also wrote a book called The Billionaire's Vinegar, which is a great rare wine mystery tale. And he is out now with something that is extremely of the moment, which is a book about... the guy or guys or girls, we don't actually know, who invented Bitcoin, the mysterious Mr. Nakamoto. So thank you for being here, Ben Wallace.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
From there, you say that the drive to decipher... Satoshi brought this car chase, right? This is the car chase.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
A bounty, a $75 billion fortune. I assume that's what he actually or they or she has from Bitcoin themselves. But there's been extortion attempts to try to find him. Death threats. A SWAT team was called in. A fugitive arms dealer got involved.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
A forger got involved. Like it's just basically this huge group of people. people worldwide who are like, who is this guy?
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
I do not think of you as a tech guy, but you have this book out now, which is about the invention of Bitcoin and who actually did it. And it's an anonymous person. It's like Guy Fawkes. Nobody knows who this person is, which is insane.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
I mean, he is, you know, intent on world domination and having your own currency is part of doing that.
Infamous
A Bitcoin Mystery and the Crypto Bros
Right. You need to buy things on Mars. So tell me the case for that.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon I Part 2
Now, he says that he and Brittany did eventually get together, just not right around the time of the attack.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon I Part 2
It didn't seem like he had much of a motivation to attack Brittany, let alone Brittany and Jana.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon I Part 2
From Sony Music Entertainment and Campside Media, this is Infamous. I'm Vanessa Grigoriadis. And I'm Natalie Robomet. So last episode, we went into the way Lululemon works, some of it, and what happened in the aftermath of this brutal attack on two employees, educators, in the boutique in Bethesda, Maryland. Afterward, Brittany was still alive.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon I Part 2
She was taken to the hospital, where she began filling in investigators on the events of the night.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon I Part 2
Now, crimes against women are often committed by intimate partners. I mean, boyfriends, spouses, husbands. And so detectives bring in a guy that they heard was dating Brittany.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon I Part 2
So while police are questioning Keith, they're also interviewing other people, collecting evidence and following all sorts of other leads. As they examine the crime scene further, it seems more and more like whoever did this really left a trail. For example, there was one extremely odd detail that had to do with a pair of shoes.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon I Part 2
So what he's saying is, in the store, you know, there would have been shoes for fittings, right, at Lululemon. That was something that they did. In this case, the detective, according to Dan Morse's book, you know, looks at the actual shoes, and when he turns over the shoes, Dan Morse says that the detective's eyebrows rose nearly all the way to his bald head.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon I Part 2
The shoe prints that were on the floor matched exactly the wavy waffle patterns on this shoe. So these were the shoes that were worn by the attacker.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon I Part 2
Remember the Apple store right next to Lululemon, the one with the CCTV?
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon I Part 2
That's right. You could hear what was happening in Lululemon from inside the Apple Store. This was late at night. It was past 10 p.m., so it was hardly peak shopping hours. Most employees had gone home for the day. It was pretty quiet. I mean, that's part of why you could hear it.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon I Part 2
The Apple employee who'd noticed the sounds said that she heard high-pitched yelps and squeals, grunting thuds, a dragging noise, like something heavy was being moved. She flagged down another manager, and they both stood there and listened. The words seemed muddled, but one of them thought they heard somebody saying, "'Talk to me. Don't do this.'" Talk to me. What's going on?
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon I Part 2
And then there was what sounded like a different voice saying, God, help me. Please help me. The Apple employees talked back and forth about calling the police. But that conversation through the wall, it just seems so personal and intimate.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon I Part 2
Plus, there was something about the voices that possibly could have stopped them. The voices' high-pitched nature. This was not a guy fighting with a girl, which they might have perceived as leading to more violence.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon I Part 2
So it's March 2011 in Bethesda, Maryland. At the police station, detectives are trying to solve the murder of Jana Murray and the violent attack on Brittany Norwood. One was a George Washington grad, the other was a former soccer star. They both seemed to be very type A, but they were friendly and they were outgoing. It was hard to imagine who could have had a motive to attack them.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 1
Das ist 28-jährige Brittany Norwood. Ihre Eltern hatten eigentlich neun Kinder und sie war die sechste dieser neun Kinder. Sie lebten früher außerhalb von Seattle. Sie hatten nicht viel Geld. Ich meine, ihr Vater machte ein Leben als Furniturer, was schwierig ist, wenn man neun Kinder hat. Aber sie waren wirklich arbeitende Arbeiter, eine tolle Familie. Ja, genau.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 1
People thought she was beautiful and she got a soccer scholarship, full ride to play soccer.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 1
Eine halbe Stunde nachdem sie weg waren, hat Britney Jana angerufen. Sie sagte, sie hätte ihren Metropass in der Strecke verlassen. Sie musste nach Hause. Jana kam zurück, weil sie mit der Schlüssel war. Sie ist der Supervisorin. Die beiden Mädchen haben sich in der Strecke getroffen.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 1
Und wenn sie in der Rückseite den Metropass bekommen, ist es dann, als die Anwälte in den Laden kommen und die beiden Frauen loslassen.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 1
The police chief would say that they had no indication at this point that this was anything but a random crime of opportunity.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 1
Und ich bin Vanessa Grigoriadis. Das ist Infamous. Mörder bei Lululemon. Episode 1.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 1
We're opening this story in an upscale shopping district in Bethesda, Maryland. It's March 12th, 2011. It's early morning, not too much noise out there. The streets around the boutiques are just starting to stir. The stores aren't quite open yet. Sidewalks are just coming to life. Einer der Stores ist ein Apple-Store, weil es natürlich ist. Und es ist gut designt, wie alle Apple-Stores.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 1
Und wirklich, wirklich populär. Selbst bevor es öffnet, gibt es Kunden da, weil der iPad 2 gerade geliefert worden ist. Dieses iPad hatte eine rücksehende Kamera, die alle Tablets heute haben. Aber damals war es das erste iPad, mit dem man FaceTime machen konnte. Die Leute waren sehr aufgeregt. So viele Leute kamen am Tag vor, als sie es kaufen wollten, dass sie die Kunden wegwerfen.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 1
Right next door to Apple, there's Lululemon, everybody's favorite athleisure store. Home to those leggings that can run a hundred dollars and just make your butt look really good.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 1
Und dann, währenddessen, haben Sie in Lululemon den Ort, wo jeder seine Leggings bekommt, um ihre Athletik zu machen oder einfach auszuhängen, diesen gruseligen Mörder. Der Ort ist mit Blut gespattert. Das ist der Art von Mörder, den Sie auf CSI sehen, nicht in Bethesda.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 1
Sie verkauften Kleidung in einer Boutique, die nicht nur um Kleidung ging. Es ging auch um all das, was du vorhin gehört hast, die Zielsetzung, die inspirierenden Quote. Eine davon wurde Jana Murray genannt. Sie war 30 Jahre alt.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
So Joe's at the Bay Point Marriott in Panama City Beach, and he's finally trying to settle the civil suit. He's sitting at a table, shorts, baseball cap, playing a handheld video game, and the lawyers come in. He announces to them that they aren't going to get a dime.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
But on this night, Paris is hanging out with a friend of Riley's. His name is Will Wright. Now, he'll eventually be indicted for moving what law enforcement told CBS was a cool 200 kilos of cocaine from California to New York. But tonight, he's doing something slightly less covert. He's hanging with Paris. He's leaning in close to give her a piece of gossip.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Because he ordered Joe back to mediation or else. David's paper had a particular way of putting it, which made it sound pretty definitive, even if the judge didn't quite mean it that way.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
In other words, lawyers all across the South may have thought, huh, I could bring a case against this guy, that's for sure. But in this moment, even though the judge has said that Joe Francis should do meaningful mediation, you can guess that Joe's next attempt at mediation doesn't go much better than the first.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
He even tells the Associated Press, in his fury, that he's stuck in a case of judges go wild.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Now, I'm sitting here with my producer, Lily Smith, and she is going to read a few of the things that Joe's lawyers wrote to a court around this time because they really capture his state of mind.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
That's Kim Kardashian talking to a TMZ reporter. She's just, you know, minding her business, getting into her car in a parking lot, and the TMZ reporter is filming her. That's why I'm wearing a free Joe shirt. Yes, Kim is wearing a T-shirt, which in big block letters says, Free Joe. But David Angier doesn't feel bad for him.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
While in jail, he allegedly tries to bribe a guard. He just wants one bottle of water, and he's willing to pay $500 for it. And that's not all. The guards claim to find sleeping pills, prescription medication, $700 in cash. And this is just the beginning. Even though Joe signs the settlement with the Chateau Motel women, he's taken into federal custody and transported to another jail.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
This one is on the other side of the country, Reno, Nevada.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Out in the desert, hot sun burning down on him, he's imprisoned. It's an accusation of tax issues in 2002 and 2003. He has his own cell. He's in a special housing unit because of his celebrity status. And he gets to do a bunch of interviews. Here he is on a radio show. It's Bubba the Love Sponge.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
And for whatever reason, he is, allegedly, bringing up that robbery in Bel Air. The one involving Joe Francis. Now, Paris had heard rumors of what happened to Joe.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
This is a pretty welcoming audience, Bubba the Love Sponge, and they feel bad for Joe.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
What Riley's robbery has to do with homophobia is a bit unclear, but it is clear that Joe feels that he is being maligned, and many news organizations are willing to hear him out.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Eventually, Joe comes to terms in part of the Chateau Motel case with the underage girls. He pleads no contest to one count of child abuse and two misdemeanor counts of prostitution. He also pleads no contest for violating jail rules with the sleeping pills and the cash. This is Joe on the steps of the Panama City courthouse,
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
But by the time Joe gets out, spring 2008, Riley is only a few years into his sentence. And he's having a very different time in jail. So what did you say when people asked you, what's your crime?
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
So what are you thinking when you hear that Joe is in jail trying to get a water bottle?
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
That's a law enforcement tape. Why Paris is on tape will become clear in a minute. And she's saying that people have been talking about it, but she didn't know any details. That is, according to Paris, until this guy Will Wright started talking. Riley Perez again.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Riley, the guy who kidnapped and extorted Joe, he served nine years in prison, compared to Joe's total of 11 months. But after all this, Joe still can't stay out of trouble. How much punishment does he really deserve? We'll get to that question next time on Infamous.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
But it sort of doesn't matter who told Paris. It's what happened next that's critical. Because a month or so later, Paris is out again, and she sees another one of her pals, Joe Francis.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
It's been 10 months since Joe Francis was robbed at home. And Joe still has no idea who robbed him. But now, Joe is going to tell the authorities what he just heard from Paris. And the detectives are going to ring up Paris and ask her themselves. That's this tape. Now, for the very first time, from Paris Hilton, Joe has heard a name. Darnell, a.k.a.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
And answer he would when the cops came knocking. From Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment, I'm Vanessa Grigoriadis. And this is Infamous. We're on episode four of our five-part series, Boy Gone Wild. So last episode, we got a blow-by-blow account of exactly how Riley broke in and kidnapped Joe.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
This episode, we're looking at the aftermath of the crime and all the legal ramifications to come for both Riley and for Joe. For now, though, we're going back to Los Angeles.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
It's in the afternoon and Riley is driving to his apartment in Hollywood. He turns up his street. It's called Whitley Avenue.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Hey, everyone. This is episode four of Boy Gone Wild. As always, a reminder, you don't want to listen to episode four. You want to listen to episode one if you haven't heard it yet. So please scroll back in your feed. We work too hard on these to have you not enjoy the story from the beginning. So please go back to episode one.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
So Riley sits in the back of the van. He waits to find out what's going to happen to him. That's after the break.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
So now that he's been arrested, U.S. Marshals take Riley to LAPD headquarters downtown.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
At this point, Riley has no idea what he's being booked for. As far as he's concerned, the Joe Francis robbery is a cold case. Since the Marshals forgot to take his phone, he's got it in the interrogation room.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Riley doesn't know what else the detectives have on him, but he makes a decision there and then.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Overnight, Riley becomes a pariah. How do you feel now being in a case where these people are all going to say they don't know you?
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
In December 2005, after nine months in jail, Riley has his preliminary hearing. He walks into the courtroom, takes a seat next to his lawyer, and looks around.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
So now it's fall 2004. We're in Las Vegas. Grandma Hard Rock Hotel, to be exact. It's after hours for Nikki Hilton's birthday. And the usual crowd is just dancing and drinking late into the night. Around 4 a.m., Paris Hilton is playing bartender. She's at the height of her stardom. That's hot. That's hot. That's hot. That's hot. She's out every night. She's got the sex tape.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Riley's lawyer, Ron Richards, is able to get one of the kidnapping charges dropped. And after the hearing, Ron started negotiating a plea bargain.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
It kind of sounds like haggling over something on Craigslist. You start really low, the other person counters, but then you come up a little to meet them in between. Except this isn't a bike or a used couch. It's years of a person's life.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Riley shipped away to Supermax. But pretty soon, Joe's about to do some fighting of his own back in Florida. More after the break.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Riley's case is winding its way through the courts. But Joe's facing problems of his own. Remember all that stuff in Panama City Beach, Florida, when he battled Mayor Lee?
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Yeah, that stuff in Panama City Beach doesn't seem to be going away. Joe still needs to answer for those girls from the Chateau Motel, room 320.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Two of those girls were filmed in a shower scene, and two of them alleged that Joe paid them $50 to masturbate him. They were underage. And one of them, according to a book, was feeling guilty and told her parents. And that's what brought the cops down on Joe. Now, I should make clear that the Chateau Motel situation is a bit more complex than it was initially thought by law enforcement.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Joe's arguing that all of the girls said they were 18 to his cameramen because they were super excited to get on the tapes. Plus, Girls Gone Wild is adamant that it's been flying straight and doing right by girls who flash or do more and then realize afterwards they didn't want to do it.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Regardless, the legal system has been trying to get Joe, and the case has been dragging on for years. Here's David Angier, a local Florida reporter. David was present many days during Joe's legal troubles. He calls Joe's case the most voluminous, most talked-about case in Bay County history.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
She's getting national attention for being on The Simple Life.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
David was covering Joe's legal fight for the Panama City News-Herald, but he also wrote a whole book about it. It's called The Madness of Joe Francis.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Joe is just sort of going off on everyone.
Infamous
Encore: The Rise and Fall of Girls Gone Wild | Part 4
Joe's dealing with the criminal charges regarding the girls at the Chateau Motel, but they're also bringing a civil suit, meaning they want money. And when Joe gets into mediation with the Chateau Motel's girls' lawyers, things get very wild and not at all in a good way. According to David's book, it's March 21st, 2007. Yeah, the 2003 case has gone on this long.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Even Brittany herself, while the investigation was going on, said her interactions with Lululemon were positive.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
So yes, Lululemon is a very intense company. One of the things the company used to do is let employees take an intense, inspirational course through a company called Landmark Worldwide. Landmark runs workshops in which people have breakthroughs about where they are stuck in their lives.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
This episode, we're going to talk more about the originally Canadian company Lululemon and what the store is and represents. Now, I do want to talk for a second about my teenage daughter, who really covets their leggings and wants badly to wear them. I do not want to pay this much for teenage leggings, but I asked her recently how she feels about them.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
And according to that New York Times Magazine article, quote, every employee is strongly encouraged to enroll in the Landmark Forum at Lululemon's expense. Chip Wilson also told the reporter that when he first discovered Landmark, he was struck by the idea that, quote, once I take responsibility, then I have power. And he's talking about, of course, having power in your life.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
But you're supposed to like it because it's, like, awesome. Good? Yeah.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
So that's the way a 13 year old perceives the brands that are all around her. You just want them because they're brands, not because they stand for something else. But of course, as adults, we know it's more than just that. Lululemon isn't just well-fitting leggings. It's a whole ethos, one about striving and goals and becoming your best self. So this episode, our producer,
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Lily also spoke with Elena, the former employee on Bloor Street in Toronto, about Landmark.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Okay, that's it for the episode this week. I think we can all agree that shopping is a huge part of American lives today, for better or worse. And the cults of commercialism range far and wide, some a bit weirder than the others. It's like they say, lots of little kids can identify a zillion brand logos, but they can't tell the difference between the leaves of different trees and nature anymore.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Shopping is just the stuff of our lives. As far as Lululemon and shoplifting are concerned, there was an interesting story recently about how they fired two of their employees who tried to stop some guys from shoplifting in the store. This happened in Atlanta, but it became a huge national story because why would Lululemon do that?
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Didn't they want their employees to stop people from shoplifting their ridiculously expensive pants? Well, maybe they know their history and the way that shoplifting factored into this really sad story of two women's lives derailed. That's it for this week and this four-part series.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
It was a lot of work, but I hope you enjoyed this fascinating tale about a store we all know, even if we don't shop there. And we'll be back next week with a whole new story. Before we go, please applaud the team that made this Sony Music and Campside Media production. the executive producer, Natalie Robomed, the producer, Lily Houston-Smith, who also reported all of these episodes.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Also, our assistant producer, Emma Simonoff, our studio recordist, Ewen Lai-Tremuin, and Amber Devereaux, our sound designer. Many thanks again for listening.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Lily Houston Smith, is going to interview a bunch of different people who have interacted with Lululemon to unpack all of that a bit. She's starting with Kat, the educator who was way at the beginning of this series, the one who worked in the store in Soho and talked about how we all know some people who are into yoga because there's darkness lurking in them.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Lululemon has a new leader, they have new practices now, and they also did not respond to a written list of questions that we sent them about some of the material that we've been covering in this series. You know, I do think the company is quite different now. I was in the Soho store myself the other day, and I didn't even see any inspirational sayings around. I just saw a lot of athleisure wear.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Selling yoga clothes ended up being a great experience for Kat. There was no grisly murder at her store. Jaina's tragic death actually happened years before she worked there at a totally different branch of the store in Bethesda. And actually, when we told Kat about the murder, she said she'd never even heard about it. But she also said she wasn't that surprised.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Now, obviously, we can't blame Lululemon for Brittany's actions. Between her shoplifting and the restraining order that had been issued against her, she had clearly had a troubled history. We aren't saying in any way, shape, or form that Lululemon was responsible.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
But the way that Lululemon created goals and ethics for the employees, and Brittany's sense that these things would set her life on the right track, and her anger over being caught shoplifting, which she likely knew was going to lead to her being fired and being knocked off that track, getting that job at Equinox, fixing her money problems, all the things she was aspiring to do.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Well, all of that does seem to me like it may have contributed to Brittany's mindset that night. Here's Lily talking to Kat about how the store sometimes felt like more than a normal retail job. And we're just going to let them talk for a while.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Just a reminder, if you haven't listened to our series on murder at Lululemon, please scroll back and go all the way to part one. Start there before you listen to this one. To be clear, a lot of what we're covering in this episode is in the past.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
But to get back to our story, one thing we haven't talked about yet is how the company reacted to the murder of Jana Murray. Here's attorney John McCarthy, who you've been hearing from a lot.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
One of the reasons I'm so fascinated by Lululemon is that it feels like the height of the athleisure craze, which has been so significant to American culture in the past, let's call it 10 years. We just dress differently now with a lot more leggings and sweatpants. Our speech is even much more casual and in some ways you could say coarse.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
I also think that athleisure signals to other people virtue in a weird way. It signals that you care about taking care of yourself. That you're virtuous yourself and gives you the aura of that very American thing that we call self-reliance. It's all tied in with the way that women are being asked to do more and more and more today.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
That we have to wear our exercise clothes to then go to our job or go to school pickup. Just the way that, you know, life is so stacked today. against us, and there's never any time to do anything or to even calm down.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Now, I could be reading too much into all of this, because Lululemon is also just about your butt looking good in pants, but to speak for a minute about Chip Wilson, the former leader, he had a lot of ideas about how he wanted his company structured. I'm going to read a bit from an article that was written about him in the New York Times Magazine in 2015.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
And again, reminder that a lot of what we're talking about in this episode and the people we're interviewing were connected to the company long ago. So in this article, the author writes that Chip was determined that his employees should be sophisticated retail educators. And he resolved from the outset to pay them more than sales clerks usually make, as much as 30% over the local rate.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Higher wages, he thought, would mean less turnover, and he wanted to unlock the potential of his employees. The article also talks about the goal setting that employees were asked to do and post in the store's break rooms, and that this was an idea that Chip had borrowed from Brian Tracy, who is the author of a book called The Psychology of Achievement.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
And that's one of the self-help books that Chip says he lives by. Now, this is actually pretty similar to the way that lots of millennials want to think about work. You shouldn't just be a cog in a machine or a set of hands on an assembly line.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
Instead, you should seek to find some personal fulfillment in your professional life, especially since most of us spend more than half our waking hours doing it. But not everyone appreciates this idea. Lily's going to talk now to a former Lululemon employee who worked at the Bloor Street location in Toronto in the mid-2000s. She's going to talk first about meeting Chip.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 4
This former employee's name is Elena. She was working in this boutique, selling the pants, the clothes, most of it made with a very cool technical materials that Chip Wilson had figured out.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
David wanted to think that something had just happened to Latifah's phone and she'd find some other way to reach out. But the days turned into weeks and weeks into months.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
In February 2021, clips from those videos were released to the world.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Now, for the first time, world leaders began recognising Latifa's situation, like then Prime Minister Boris Johnson.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
A United Nations committee demanded proof that Latifa was alive. But the UAE responded with a weak statement. So in May, David and his team asked Britain to freeze Sheikh Mohammed's assets. And then the unexpected happened.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Nobody had heard from Latifa in months. Yet here was this photo of her sitting at a table at the Mall of the Emirates. Just sitting there between two women. The picture appeared to be recent. Behind them, there was an ad for a movie that was released that year. The two women were smiling brightly, both leaning an arm on the table. But Latifa, wearing all black, she looked less comfortable.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
She kept her hands in her lap, and she seemed kind of scared, sort of like how she looked in that old photo with Mary Robinson. Since the summer of 2021, more photos of Latifa have turned up. One of her in a restaurant with a woman from the first photo. She also posted a picture with Latifa at an airport in Spain. The caption reads, Great European holiday with Latifa. Smiley face emoji.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
David Haig accepted all these photos cautiously.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
But the photos weren't nothing. The last time he talked to her, she'd been a hostage.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
David and Tina made a choice to end the Free Latifa campaign. Now, to me, that doesn't necessarily mean the Latifa is free. But some compromise may have been reached where she can travel outside of Dubai. There was also a picture of her in Spain. As far as Haya is concerned, it seems only rational to think that she was led astray in the Mary Robinson incident.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
and that she either felt that she needed to defend the Sheikh's honor because that's what a good wife does, or, connecting the dots, she may have been fearful for her own children and her own safety. Regardless, the disposition of the court case seems to mean that she did get what she wanted. She is free. And the Sheikh?
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
He is the absolute ruler of Dubai, a descendant of the family that's been in power since it was a country of pearl divers, not real housewives. Everyone in the West benefits from his leadership. Europe, the United States, We need a force to combat Islamic fundamentalism in the Gulf region, and you could say that a capitalist, expat-friendly culture like Dubai functions as a spear.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
But a German contractor reaping millions building multi-star hotels in Dubai seems to live a very different life than some of Dubai's citizens, especially some of the royal family's women. It's hard to feel bad for princesses, I know. But these princesses seem as though they want more than a closet of handbags. They want justice.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Thank you so much for listening to our story. We hope that the next time you hear about things like Beyonce playing a concert in Dubai for millions of dollars, you think about the power behind that money. Next week on Infamous, we'll find out what happens when a guy from South Dakota falls in love with a possible Russian spy.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Infamous is created and executive produced by Gabriel Sherman and me, Vanessa Gregoriotis. This episode was co-hosted by Natalie Robomed, who wrote it with Heather Schroering. Producing by Heather Schroering, Natalia Winkleman, Lily Houston-Smith, and Grace Heerman. Princess Haya and Sheikh Mohammed did not comment for this series. Shoshi Shmulevitz is our managing producer and editor.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Sound design by David Devereaux. Recording by Ewen Lai Tramuen. And fact-checking by Matt Giles. Voices by Rajiv Gola and Lily Houston-Smith. Campside Media's executive producers are Josh Dean, Adam Hoff, Matt Scher, and myself. Campside Media's operations team is Doug Slawin, Ashley Warren, and Destiny Dingle. If you're enjoying Infamous, please rate and review the show.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
You're listening to Dubai's Missing Princesses, the fourth and final episode. Now, last episode, we met Princess Haya and we heard about how she first spouted the party line when it came to Latifa.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Now this episode, we're going to find out what happens when a third princess tries to make her escape. That's coming up after the break.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
So after all the provocation Haya says she received, the threats and the messages and the intimidation, she decided enough was enough. In April 2019, she chartered one of the family's private planes. I can imagine her walking up the air stair, her kids in tow, looking over her shoulder. And just like that, she left Dubai.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Haya landed in the UK, which was a risky choice. Sheikh Mo not only owned horses there, but he owned so much property and had so many ties.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Haya had ties there, too. I mean, she wasn't a relatively unknown Dubai royal like Latifa or Shamsa. She was the princess from Jordan, a royal twice over, the Arab Princess Dai. She set up shop in one of the most expensive homes in the entire city, a big brick house looming behind a fence. Haya also put her political might to work.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
The Jordanian embassy in London gave her the title of First Secretary. That gave her diplomatic immunity, making her exempt from UK law. Which was a real smart move, because less than a month after her escape, Sheikh Mohammed launched legal action in the UK courts. He wanted his kids back. And Shakemo was very used to winning.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Right after Ascot, Haya's legal team says Sheikh Mo began an all-out media war. More than a thousand articles about her were published in less than a month. One of them suggested Haya was an agent of Hamas who intended to overthrow Jordan. British papers were suddenly filled with reports of the affair she'd had with a security guard.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
There were later hearsay accounts that made Haya out to be the aggressor. She'd showered the bodyguard with gifts, like a $15,000 watch and a vintage shotgun that cost nearly $60,000. Plus, worried that he'd say something publicly, she supposedly paid the bodyguard roughly $1.2 million. Even diplomatic immunity couldn't save her reputation now.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
So she gave up her diplomatic immunity to fight back.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Haya presented herself as a battered wife, just trying to protect her children.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
She alleged that Sheikh Mohammed wanted to marry off one of her young kids, and she filed an injunction usually reserved for victims of domestic abuse. But Haya had a trump card up her sleeve. Two, actually. Shamsa and Latifah. Now it seems like Haya was going to play them to play Muhammad. That's after the break.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
So far, Haya hadn't done anything publicly to support Latifa or Shamsa. In fact, she'd loudly insisted Latifa's escape was a private family matter. And she'd orchestrated that whole weird lunch with Mary Robinson to prove it. Despite being a UN messenger of peace, she'd never even mentioned Shamsa.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
But I imagine if Haya could prove that Sheikh Mohammed had a pattern of allegedly mistreating his children, like Shamsa and Latifa, she'd have a better chance at winning her own custody case. So that summer, reports emerged that she'd recently learned disturbing facts about Latifa.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Whether she finally had learned the truth about Latifah, or whether she was using Latifah's story to bolster her own, those escapes were about to form the backbone of Haya's argument. The court's hearings and fact findings covered both Shamsa and Latifa's stories in a lot of detail. And it all leaked out. She was directly contradicting everything she'd said previously.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Sheikh Mo obviously felt he had to respond to all this. He insisted that he believed Latifa was manipulated by Hervé Jobert, who he claimed had asked for money. Sheikh Mo said that he feared Jobert was holding Latifa under ransom. Here's an actor for Sheikh Mo.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
The allegation that Joubert asked for money is unproven. Joubert denies that he ever asked for a ransom or that he kidnapped Latifa. As for Shamsa, Sheikh Mohammed dismissed her disappearance. It was little more than a small misunderstanding. He said Shamsa felt constricted by the security measures that were in place around her.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Latifah did not appear in court in London, and neither did Shamsa. Why? Here's what Sheikmo said.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Haya had spent many days getting in and out of a black town car outside the courthouse. Sometimes she wore an emerald dress, sometimes a floral one, but she was always with her attorney, Baroness Fiona Shackleton. Don't let that fancy name fool you. As a lawyer, the Baroness was a shark. Finally, the judge indicated he was making his decision.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
He ruled in favor of Haya. He believed the extensive accounts of threats made against her.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
And he believed Sheikh Mohammed had orchestrated the abductions and the detentions of both Shamsa and Latifa. Finally walking out of court, out into the London day, Haya must have felt so vindicated. She would later receive a roughly $730 million settlement from her divorce with Sheikh Mo, making it one of the most expensive British divorces in history.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Courts also ruled that the phones of Haya and two of her attorneys had either been compromised or hacked through the use of spy software called Pegasus. And while it's unclear which country ordered the hacking, one court found the surveillance was carried out with Muhammad's express or implied authority. Now, he denied that he was involved in any hack. But today, Haya, it seems, is free.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
Now, Tina felt this was a victory, too. She felt this could be just the momentum she needed for the Free Latifa campaign.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 4
By then, Tina had been in touch with Latifa for more than a year. Luckily, they hadn't lost contact yet. She was working with David Haig, the businessman turned human rights advocate. But in July, David says he was texting with Latifa on WhatsApp when suddenly his messages stopped going through.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
Okay, he's talking about Chris, who's Brittany's brother. Chris is waiting outside with their sister, Marisa, and he has no idea what's going on inside this room.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
Brittany doesn't bite on this. She doesn't confess. But at a certain point, detectives walk out into the hall and they talk to Chris, the brother. They tell him what they believe happened. And then he comes into the interrogation room with them.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
Alone. Sure. Thanks. Detectives leave Chris and Brittany alone. And right away, he starts asking her what happened.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
But of course, there are recording devices picking up everything they're saying. And the conversation starts taking some telling and totally bizarre turns. I know it's a little hard to hear them because they're whispering.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
So he keeps on trying to get her to calm down. And then he seems to start explaining to her what her tells are, what makes it seem like she's not telling the truth.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
So during her interrogations with police, Brittany never admitted to killing Jaina. But there was so much forensic evidence, Jaina's blood all over her, the size 14 shoes, DNA, a hat that had some clues on it, that the prosecution had a pretty convincing case. It went to trial in the fall of 2011, about seven months after the initial attack.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
States Attorney John McCarthy, who you've been hearing from throughout this series, prosecuted the case.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
During the trial, McCarthy broke down what the prosecutors believed really happened that night. Brittany was caught stealing by Jaina during bag check. And after they left, Brittany called Jaina back to the store under the pretense of getting her forgotten wallet.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
Once inside the store, McCarthy believes Brittany got Jaina to come into the stockroom, where she would be out of the view of passerby. Then he thinks Brittany attacked Jaina using items such as merch pegs and steel bars that were kept for garment displays. It appears that Jaina tried to escape through the rear exit, but she couldn't get away.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
Brittany used even more weapons, a hammer from the red toolbox, that toolbox that was kept in the back of the store and used for small repairs or installing items, and a box cutter, which was used for opening merchandise deliveries. Then Brittany made it look like someone else had been there. She walked around in the size 14 shoes, cleaned them up, all of that,
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
And the defense argued there was simply no way this could have been premeditated. In their telling, that night, there'd been an impromptu argument between Brittany and Gina, the one that the Apple employees heard. But it had been what they called a mutual affray, a legal term used to convey two people both squaring off against each other. Most importantly, they said it had been unplanned.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
And during this unplanned confrontation, Brittany just lost it.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
And in the end, the defense couldn't convince the jury that she'd been overcharged, that this was just a fight gone wrong. Particularly because they never heard about Brittany shoplifting the crop pants. The judge decided that the shoplifting was hearsay, since the only evidence they had was that phone call from one of the Lulu employees who said that she talked to Jaina before the murder.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
To the jury, not hearing about this, it might have seemed like Brittany didn't have a motive, that she just did this out of evil intent. So Brittany was convicted of first-degree murder. But why had she really done it?
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
When it came time for her sentencing, Brittany still did not admit she was guilty. Instead, she only talked about what happened that night as the crime I have been convicted of. But she was sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. After the murder, Lululemon closed the store for a while, and when they reopened, they installed a stained glass window in Gina's honor.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
The love window, as it was referred to, had a pretty mosaic with the word love written across several feet. It was well known to all in Bethesda while shopping. Now, Lululemon eventually closed that store. But as merchandise and displays moved out, they must have thought about what to do with a stained glass window and decided to give it to Jaina's brother.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
As he told the local news when they were covering this development, it obviously means a lot to us as it represents Jaina. We definitely wanted to preserve it and have it in our home. We'll be back next week to wrap up Murder at Lululemon. See you then.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
Last episode, police tracked down several leads. They were trying to figure out just what had happened to the ladies in the Lululemon store. They soon discovered that Brittany had been accused of shoplifting and that at a previous Lululemon store she'd worked at, at a different location, she'd done what's called discount abuse. That's why she'd been transferred to the Bethesda location.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
But despite her big dreams of getting a job at Equinox, becoming a trainer, which is the goal she really decided she wanted, once Brittany got to Lululemon, her stealing issues continued. And that really upset the other women who were working there.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
Hey everyone, this is our series on the murder at Lululemon, and we are on episode 3. So if this is the first time you're hearing about this story, you don't want to enter in the middle, please scroll back in your feed, find Murder at Lululemon Part 1, and start there. Okay, thanks so much for listening.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
Now we're back in the interrogation room where Brittany is telling detectives an unbelievable story. She's saying that in the middle of the attack, the two men had made Brittany find Jana's car keys, get in her car and move it. Detectives aren't buying it, but they let her keep talking and talking. I'm gonna let some of that police station audio play out now.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
So that's the way the conversation has been going. But now the detective starts to push a little harder.
Infamous
Murder at Lululemon | Part 3
By now, remember, the detectives also know this is a lie. They have witnesses from the Apple store who heard two women yelling. There weren't any male voices. So eventually, one of the detectives decides it's time to really talk to Brittany. Again, I'm just going to let this tape play out a bit.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 3
Princess Haya, Sheikh Mohammed's second official wife. She had glossy highlights and glowing skin. She was sort of like an Arab version of Princess Di. Haya was well-traveled, cultured, and a prize-winning showjumper.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 3
When Haya was 26, she became the first Arab woman equestrian in the Olympics.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 3
Infamous is created and executive produced by Gabriel Sherman and me, Vanessa Gregoriotis. This episode was co-hosted by Natalie Robomed, who wrote it with Heather Schroering. Producing by Heather Schroering, Natalia Winkleman, Lily Houston-Smith, and Grace Heerman. Princess Haya did not comment for this series. Shoshi Shmulevitz is our managing producer and editor.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 3
Sound design by David Devereaux. Recording by Ewen Lai Tramuen. And fact checking by Matt Giles. Voices by Rajiv Gola and Lily Houston-Smith. Campside Media's executive producers are Josh Dean, Adam Hoff, Matt Scher, and myself. Campside Media's operations team is Doug Slaywin, Ashley Warren, and Destiny Dingle. If you're enjoying Infamous, please rate and review the show.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 3
That's Louise Callahan, a journalist who covers the region.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 3
Unlike Sheikh Mo's other wives, Haya was famous in her own right. You see, she's the daughter of King Hussein of Jordan and the stepdaughter of Queen Noor, the progressive monarch of Jordan.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 3
Queen Noor was absolutely beloved in the West and in Jordan, too. And when Haya's own mother died in a helicopter accident, when Haya was only about three years old, Queen Noor eventually became her stepmother. Aya's world as a child was about Queen Noor and about horse riding. When she was very young, her father gave her a foal who had also lost its mother.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 3
She was the perfect symbol for Dubai's new, modernized image. Never mind that she was about 25 years younger than Sheikh Mo.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 3
Princess Haya was about to play another very important role on the world stage, a role that involved Latifah. From Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment, I'm Vanessa Grigoriadis. I'm Natalie Robamed. And this is Infamous, Dubai's Missing Princesses, Episode 3. So last episode, Latifa escaped from Dubai, only to be hauled back soon after.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 3
So now we're going to hear more about Sheikh Mo's most public wife, Princess Haya, and what she did or didn't know. That's coming up after the break.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 3
If Sheikh Mohammed felt any pressure from the whole Sheikha Latifa ordeal, it didn't show. He was busy with, among other things, horse racing.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 3
He was also a horse owner, one of the biggest in the world. He's a fixture at Ascot and always used to sit in the royal box with the queen. He started one of the most successful horse racing teams in the world, Godolphin.
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Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 2
In a book he wrote about his adventures, Escape from Dubai, he says for his own departure from the country, he was cunning. He dressed like an Emirati woman in a long black robe called an abaya, which covered him from head to toe. He pulled a thin black veil over his face. Using these clothes to hide wasn't unheard of. I mean, Michael Jackson did it when he visited Dubai.
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Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 2
Someone spotted him in the women's bathroom with a headscarf on and it was a whole thing.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 2
It was like being invisible, because if you're in a veil, you're a woman. And in some of the Arab world, that means no one cares about what you have to say. From Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment, this is Infamous.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 2
Right. That seems to have had a really big impact on Latifah. I think the fallout from Shamsa's escape was the catalyst for Latifah's own escape.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 2
August 2017. Tina Yauhiainen was standing in a hotel lobby in the Philippines. It's hot, humid, the kind of weather that makes your shirt stick to your back. Tina was probably thinking, what am I doing here? She was just a Finnish capoeira instructor who was in Dubai for its good standard of living. Then she taught Sheikha Latifa. And now that princess needed her help.
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Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 2
Spring has sprung, and I am dying to get out of town. I'm actually going away this weekend with some friends, and I recently bought my partner a new Quince carry-on that I might just be borrowing for this trip.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 2
This year, I'm treating myself to the luxe upgrades I deserve with Quince's high-quality travel essentials at fair prices, like lightweight European linen styles from $30, washable silk tops, and comfy lounge sets, with premium luggage options and stylish tote bags to carry it all. The best part? All Quince items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands.
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Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 2
For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from Quince. Go to quince.com slash infamous for 365-day returns, plus free shipping on your order. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash infamous to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash infamous
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Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 2
Hervé Jobert had been working in Dubai making submarines. The business he worked for was a subsidiary of a government-owned conglomerate called Dubai World. But Gilbert had problems with this company. They would allege he embezzled, and he would deny that. And so he escaped. Oh, also, Gilbert claims he was once a French spy.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Tina was riveted by Latifa's story about her older sister Shamsa, who has been described as cheeky, full of life, with dark hair and full lips like her younger sister. Her name meant son in Arabic. But in terms of the pecking order in Sheikh Mo's family, she and Latifa were not a planet that others orbited around.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Latifa said the story started nearly two decades earlier, when Shamsa had big plans for her life. She wanted to go to college. In a letter she purportedly wrote to her cousin, she said that Sheikh Mo wouldn't let her. By the way, we reached out to Sheikh Mohammed's attorney with a detailed list of questions about everything you're hearing in this episode. We did not hear back.
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Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Tina learned that Shamsa had supposedly just left the house, disappeared off to points far from Surrey. Latifa, meanwhile, says she was back in Dubai.
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Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
While everyone was searching for Shamsa, Latifa and she were still talking. The whole time, she was communicating with me. But according to a letter supposedly written by Shamsa after she left home, They found her. a group of Sheikh Mohammed's agents allegedly appeared. They grabbed her, kicking and screaming, threw her in the car.
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Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Shamsa claims she was transported to another Sheikh Mohammed's British estates. Around 5 a.m. the next day, she was on a helicopter and then a plane on the way back to Dubai.
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Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Latifa was there. She was just a teenager at the time and one imagined she wanted to see her sister. But Shamsa didn't come back to her house. Latifa says she was locked away at a palace. We snuck in a telephone so we could talk to her.
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Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
And Shamsa wasn't giving up hope. Not yet. She supposedly managed to get a letter to an immigration lawyer she'd met in London. And the story eventually reached British journalists.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Now, growing up in Dubai, I know there's nothing more important than the family name in Emirati culture. It's everything. They're also fiercely private. Problems within a family are handled internally and never talked about with outsiders. So the fact that this became a news story was a big problem for Sheikh Mo.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
But it's hard to get Western readers to care about things happening halfway around the world, especially when they're happening to an Arab woman. And before long, the story had been forgotten. I lost my communication with Shamsa. And now, Latifa claims she was kept under even tighter lock and key. They wouldn't allow me to have internet. I didn't have a phone.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
With even less freedom than before, Latifa started to lose it. She needed to do something.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Now, Sheikh Mohammed's office has denied that Latifa has ever been arrested or detained. All we have to go on is Latifa's word.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
She says she couldn't change her clothes. She had no soap to wash herself with. She slept on a thin mattress that she claimed was covered in blood and feces.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
When she finally got to visit her family a year later, everything in Dubai seemed different.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Nothing is normal. According to Latifa, she was put back in prison for another two years. When I got out, The second time, I hated everyone. She wasn't even 21. And she says she'd spent more than three years in prison.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
So Latifa retreated into horse riding and scuba diving. She became friends with Tina. And eventually, she told Tina the whole story.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Tina says it was about a year after that when Latifa came to her with a request.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Latifa wanted to escape Dubai, this time for good. What happened next makes the plot of a James Bond movie sound boring because it involves a dramatic escape, a yacht and a video that would change everything.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Yeah, I actually grew up in the UAE, and I lived there until I was 18, first in Abu Dhabi and then in Dubai. So what was that like? Well, it was interesting. The UAE is this tiny sliver of a nation, slightly smaller than Maine. It's right next to Saudi Arabia, and it was officially formed in 1971 from a bunch of these kind of tiny city-states ruled by different royal families.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Hi y'all, welcome back to Infamous. You're about to hear the first episode in our series on Dubai's missing princesses. We first aired this in 2023, and since then, there's only been more intrigue over the world's missing royals. I mean, remember when internet conspiracy theorists were convinced Kate Middleton had disappeared when she actually was just dealing with a cancer diagnosis?
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Who are the sheikhs, right? Exactly, exactly. So the male members of those ruling families are called sheikhs and the female members are called sheikhs. You'd be surprised to think about it now, but back in the 90s when I'd tell people where I was from, they'd be like, Dubai? Where is that? I mean, are you trying to say that Americans don't care about the rest of the world? Not no.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
But yeah, there was a time when not a lot of people had heard of Dubai. I mean, the UAE is only 51 years old as a country. Before then, and before oil money changed everything, it was known as the crucial states.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Well, it's definitely a little Orientalist way of describing it. But yeah, I mean, it was nowhere near as developed as it was now. They were nomadic people. I mean, the main industry was pearl diving and trading. So there's a grain of truth in there.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Yeah, I mean, when I was growing up there in the 90s, Dubai was definitely still relatively small, but it was really, really rapidly developing as a tourism destination. It kind of marketed itself to all these foreigners as a safe haven with permanent sunshine, even in the dead of winter. So people flooded over.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Yeah, I mean, there was a point in the 2000s when I started to see tour buses on the way to school, and I was like, oh, this has really changed. And that is the world that you can now see on the Real Housewives of Dubai. There's a lot of gold here, and we have a lot of gold diggers, too.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
The thing that's so weird about Dubai is there was always this other side to it, a terrifying side. You could be arrested for being gay or for being a man allegedly wearing women's clothes. There was no freedom of speech. You'd try to buy an issue of Vogue and there'd be big black Sharpie marks over nipples or other body parts, which were considered too risque.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Back then, even the internet was censored by the government. If you tried to log into a website the government didn't like, it would be blocked and an error message would pop up. And what would it say? Oh man, it would basically say that the site is blocked because it's inconsistent with the religious, cultural, political, and moral values of the United Arab Emirates.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Money. That's a big part of it. People put up with it because it's basically a tax haven. You don't really have to pay any income tax to live there. So you can make lots of money in this kind of a set of golden handcuffs.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
But unlike Kate, this is the story of several very real disappearances, about women desperately attempting to escape a gilded cage, with dire consequences. We hope you enjoy it, and thanks for listening.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
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Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
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Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
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Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Before we get into the epic tale of what happened with Sheikha Latifa and her father, I want to note that there was one thing she was known for, and it definitely wasn't handcuffs. It was an act of total freedom, at least metaphorically speaking. She was jumping out of airplanes. Picture it, over and over, many, many times.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Latifa is in a black skydiving suit, free falling from hundreds of feet above the aqua blue Persian Gulf. She has the best view of Dubai, the city, the sea, the desert. She's wearing pink and orange sunglasses that match her Nike sneakers. In a photo, you can see her stretching out one leg in front of her, as though she's running on a cloud.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
That's Latifa in a video she recorded herself. She's got long black hair and dark almond-shaped eyes that widen as she talks. When we think of wealthy golf royals, we think of monthly stipends and designer handbags. Maybe they have a flat in London and a maid, maybe a cushy job as a VP of a bank, even if that job is really just a way of transferring money into their own bank accounts.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
But Latifa was a bit different. She was constantly on the move. If she wasn't jumping out of planes, she was riding horses, playing with her pet monkey, or mastering martial arts. Which is how she met her friend, Tina Jauhiainen.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Tina's from Finland. She moved to Dubai more than 20 years ago, which in the very transient city with lots of expats and real housewives makes her an old timer. Tina started seeing Latifa almost every day. Latifa wasn't allowed to work, so new hobbies like capoeira and then skydiving became obsessions.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Turns out the image of a fearless, free, daredevil princess wasn't the whole story.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
Now, some Emirati women live very free lives. They study abroad, work in government, don't wear hijabs. But a lot of these personal freedoms are decided by families and aren't codified in law. Up until recently, it was legal for a man to have sex with a girl as long as she was 14. But for women, if you had kids out of wedlock, you could face a minimum of two years in jail.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
And if you get divorced, you can lose custody of your children to the father once daughters reach 13 and sons 11. This means that some women are basically second-class citizens to their husbands and fathers. For example, Emirati women need their male guardian's approval to marry, meaning their dad, or if the dad has passed away, a brother or a cousin.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
And get this, only Emirati men pass down citizenship. So if an Emirati woman has a child with a non-Emirati man, her kid won't automatically be a UAE citizen. To return to Latifa, well, she says that her life as a royal was even stricter than life for regular Emirati women.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
This was all disturbing to Tina, obviously. But there was something else Latifa said that was a real turning point for her. Now she would understand what Latifa's life was really like. More after the break.
Infamous
Encore: Dubai's Missing Princesses I Part 1
So Tina had already been friends with Latifa for several years before Latifa finally told her about her sister.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
Yeah, I'm glad you didn't take offense to being a purveyor of analysis of sleaze.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
Actually, now that I'm thinking through this, it might have been that I knew her as this crazy heiress partier and The Simple Life was announced and I booked the interview to come out and coincide with the release. So it probably wasn't out yet.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
But then she wants a piece of it. Or what happens?
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
I mean, she's... you know a beacon of light she's she's a lovely human being through and through she's an optimistic glass half full person and i'm glad that she's having a renaissance and coming out without her makeup on i mean it is a bit sad that like the only middle-aged woman who can go out without her makeup on is the woman who we all agree was like the hottest one from the 80s
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
So that brings us to her mentee, Kim Kardashian's tape, which, you know, everybody will tell you that they know that she released that tape, right? At the time, she was... Paris' personal stylist or whatever, you know, they were homies. They were hanging out. She was not anybody who was well-known outside of Beverly Hills, although her father, having been OJ's lawyer, was pretty prominent.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
Her mother was a super go-getter. She knew all the people there were to know, right? Is that the truth? Like, what happened there? The thing people say is, like, she copied Paris because she knew this was the way to get famous.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
So thereby she still looks great. You know, obviously her documentary that she made about was really good, really, really good, really, really honest, you know, mostly. And I think that the story that you wrote and what you uncovered about her sex tape. It's become a bit of a trope to be like, oh, she was a villain back then. And she was just supposed to be a sex crazed hoe.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
I'd be like, this is legal and this is not legal. I mean, you could have fun as an attorney, I think, with all of these gradations of gray.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
I do think we should talk about the Hulk Hogan sex tape for a second, which in our world was a massive tectonic shift because it shifted the journalism around gossip in a really profound way, or at least a perception of what you could report.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
And that was, you know, the website Gawker that was a big sort of very funny, very knowing, very literate gossip site, something you never see really anymore, reported on, even maybe showed the Hulk Hogan sex tape, again, posted by an editor who was having severe substance problems and is now in recovery. Yeah. So what happened?
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
And now we think that she was actually a victim. But in this case, Pamela Anderson was truly a victim.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, the way to make recycled.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
Just thinking everybody gets away with it. So why wouldn't we? And we'll get clicks. And then billionaire Peter Thiel, who is very angry that Gawker has reported that he's gay, which we could also say was
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
So basically today, what is the situation? Because as we know, amateurs are doing sex tapes all over the place.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
What just happened with Kevin and Kanye? Oh, my God. I love that that popped up just before we were doing this interview.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
So Vlad said, I'll be damned if I'm going to sit back and watch this proliferation of Nazism and fascism take over this country again and not saying anything. It's time to blow a whistle on these people.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
I think this Jew should go public with the details of the sex tape I intercepted for Kanye the Nazi right before he met Kim K. It's a hell of a story and one of the worst performances, I'm sure, of his troubled life.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
But he didn't want to have it out there. He put it down because... Years ago. Somewhere between 2012 and 2016. Yeah. But not because he was starting to date Kim and he didn't want it out there, just because he didn't want a sex tape of him out there. Kanye was like, no, that's not good for me.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
Right. She was a woman with her – I don't know if they were married at the time. They were, yeah. Okay. Her husband exploring her sexuality, being silly. It's a very silly sex tape in a lot of ways. They were just having fun. You know, they're holding – it's like a handheld little camcorder. It's not as though – you know, I didn't mean victim in that she is being set up to have sex on tape, but –
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
she certainly had this stolen and she didn't want it out there. Yeah. Right.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
Which is the big question about sex tapes is like, who wants it out there? Who doesn't want it out there?
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
Oh, no, it was stolen. So the next one that is famous is also by somebody that I have a vague connection to, who is Paris Hilton. So I was assigned a story by Rolling Stone to interview Paris Hilton when she was on The Simple Life. And 20 minutes before I'm supposed to meet her at some, you know, celebrity sushi restaurant, her publicist calls me up and says, hey-
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
Paris doesn't have her car tonight. So if you can drive her home after the sushi restaurant interview, that would be awesome. And I was like, oh, yeah, I can drive Paris Hilton home. No problem. Oh, my God. So I walk into this restaurant and it's like Paris and Casey Johnson, who was the Johnson & Johnson heir that was dating Tila Tequila. And Paris is just in full form.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
And she's like, yo, you know, what's up? How are you? And I was really young at this time, right? So I'm like, yeah, down to like join your fun hang here over sushi. And she's just playing with her phone. She was like, oh my God, I was just like on a yacht in the Mediterranean. All these people are like calling me and I'm like, bitches, I'm in the Mediterranean. I cannot hear you.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
And then she's like, hey, we're going to my sister Nikki's house.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
We're here today with Amanda Chicago-Lewis, who is an investigative reporter and an amazing human being and also covers a lot of things that are quite infamous and has in her career. She is well known as the person who tracked down the guy who stole the Pam and Tommy car. sex tape. And the Hulu series, if you watched it, was actually based on her Rolling Stone article about that.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
birthday party at this club you know why don't you come and i'm like sure tara reed gets in the car yeah what's up you know we're the designated driver it's just i'm the designated driver for these people we get to the club she i had a sunroof in my car she pops out the sunroof and starts yelling hey like bitches over there what's up and then she's like oh no i don't know those people
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
Like she's fully crazy, right? And awesome, by the way. I should say awesome. She and Tara Reid disappear into a bathroom for like 20 minutes. I don't know what happened in there. This whole night happens. Basically, we end up with the guys from Limp Bizkit and somebody stole our purses. Wake up the next morning and obviously I have a million messages from the publicist.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
And she's like, what happened? happened. You told me to drive her home. I mean, I did eventually drive her home.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
But then basically they're freaking out to the point where I'm like, I don't know why you guys are freaking out about this so much. Her image is to be a crazy party girl heiress. So what exactly are we talking about? Nothing that bad happened. Freaking out, freaking out. And I'm like, look, I still need to do the sit down.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
And they're like, you can go to Kyle Richards' house and you can sit with Kyle and Paris and do the sit down. Of course, I go there and it's totally weird. She's back in her pretending to be little girl persona. Everything you see about Paris in public is not who she is, right? And I'm just like, why are these people being so hella intense about this? This is Rolling Stone. Who cares?
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
done well because also there's two moments when the tape quote-unquote came out okay so let's get into this so i said two days you know two days later i mean do i remember this was 20 years ago it could have been two months later but in some short amount of time right but you tell me what the i know what the sequence of events is when she found out about her sexy i'm such a loser it's like so much so okay
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
You know, the fascinating thing is this catapulted her into fame. I was just a reporter being assigned to write a two page story off of a dumb reality show she had.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
So we are going to be talking about sex tapes quite a bit in this episode, and particularly an article that she also wrote for Wired in 2021 about a guy named Kevin Blatt, a celebrity sex tape broker who she also called the Forrest Gump of 21st century scandal in that article.
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
Goes back to like, yeah, I mean, this stuff is important. Or is it?
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
Right. So Kevin Blatt is, we're talking about the celebrity sex broker that we referenced at the top. Who is this guy? Where did he grow up? What's his deal?
Infamous
Who Sold Pam, Paris and Kim's Sex Tapes?
And he is recently in the news for threatening Kanye West to potentially release Kanye West's sex tape that apparently he was working with Kanye to keep quiet. So it's a sleaze fest. We're excited to get into it. Thank you so much, Amanda, for being here.