Wendy Zuckerman

Yeah, that's right. Because Ian, we talked about it and he said it would be almost like drowning because you're not anesthetized necessarily. So these drugs don't conk you out or, you know, put you to sleep. So you just can't breathe. And you can't even like move or scream. Oh my gosh, I can't imagine. Awful, awful.

Now, it is worth saying that in Efren's confession, according to the cops, he said that he would only do this... to patients who are unconscious.

Now, it is worth saying that in Efren's confession, according to the cops, he said that he would only do this... to patients who are unconscious.

All 40 of them? Yeah, I don't know how we can know that for sure, exactly. So the cops hold Efren Saldivar on suspicion of murder. But even though he'd given this detailed confession, admitted to killing dozens of people, in the U.S. that's not enough to go on because of this rule that's called corpus delecti. Yeah, so tell us about it. Body of the crime, tell us what it is.

All 40 of them? Yeah, I don't know how we can know that for sure, exactly. So the cops hold Efren Saldivar on suspicion of murder. But even though he'd given this detailed confession, admitted to killing dozens of people, in the U.S. that's not enough to go on because of this rule that's called corpus delecti. Yeah, so tell us about it. Body of the crime, tell us what it is.

Yeah, and in this case, all they have is a confession. They don't have any physical evidence because these patients really just could have died because they were sick. Yeah, okay. So John, the cops hold him for a couple of days while they're doing some detective work, but in 48 hours, what's he going to come up with? And so they have to let him go.

Yeah, and in this case, all they have is a confession. They don't have any physical evidence because these patients really just could have died because they were sick. Yeah, okay. So John, the cops hold him for a couple of days while they're doing some detective work, but in 48 hours, what's he going to come up with? And so they have to let him go.

And when he gets out, Efren goes on national television and says that he lied about the confession. And Sarah, our journalist, told us that Efren basically says... I didn't do it.

And when he gets out, Efren goes on national television and says that he lied about the confession. And Sarah, our journalist, told us that Efren basically says... I didn't do it.

He sort of gave this idea that he was really depressed and basically suicidal and thought that if... He confessed to these killings, then maybe he would be given the death penalty, and then that would be his way out. Okay.

He sort of gave this idea that he was really depressed and basically suicidal and thought that if... He confessed to these killings, then maybe he would be given the death penalty, and then that would be his way out. Okay.

I guess so. I guess so. He also said at the time that he was taking Valium and other sedatives and barely remembered what he said to the cops. And even a hospital spokesman around that time said, quote, "'We don't know if anything happened.'" End quote. Mm-hmm.

I guess so. I guess so. He also said at the time that he was taking Valium and other sedatives and barely remembered what he said to the cops. And even a hospital spokesman around that time said, quote, "'We don't know if anything happened.'" End quote. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, but meanwhile, the medical board responsible for respiratory therapists suspends Efren's license to practice, so he's no longer working at the hospital. And the cops, cops like John... They're not totally buying that his confession was a lie because it was just so specific, the drugs he used, you know, exactly how he did it. It felt like a weird thing to just say.

Yeah, but meanwhile, the medical board responsible for respiratory therapists suspends Efren's license to practice, so he's no longer working at the hospital. And the cops, cops like John... They're not totally buying that his confession was a lie because it was just so specific, the drugs he used, you know, exactly how he did it. It felt like a weird thing to just say.

So the cops stay on the case and actually create a task force to find out what is going on here. And they start going through every patient that died under Efren's watch. And they're looking for suspicious cases. And this is a huge task. It meant wading through more than 1,000 complicated medical records.

So the cops stay on the case and actually create a task force to find out what is going on here. And they start going through every patient that died under Efren's watch. And they're looking for suspicious cases. And this is a huge task. It meant wading through more than 1,000 complicated medical records.

But they talk to the doctors and they learn fast. And they're looking for patients who weren't given Pavalon or succinylcholine legitimately at the time of their death, so they didn't need it for surgery.

But they talk to the doctors and they learn fast. And they're looking for patients who weren't given Pavalon or succinylcholine legitimately at the time of their death, so they didn't need it for surgery.

They start looking for patients as well who, at the time of their death, had this particular pattern in their breathing and heart rate moments before they died that might suggest they were given Pavalon or succinylcholine.