Wendy Zuckerman

They start looking for patients as well who, at the time of their death, had this particular pattern in their breathing and heart rate moments before they died that might suggest they were given Pavalon or succinylcholine.

They're also on the hunt for situations like salbius sartreans and the other patients we talked about at the start of the show where they're doing better and then suddenly they die for no clear reason. Like nosedive, yeah. And so after months of trawling through these records, they come up with 20 people whose deaths at the hospital were highly suspicious.

They're also on the hunt for situations like salbius sartreans and the other patients we talked about at the start of the show where they're doing better and then suddenly they die for no clear reason. Like nosedive, yeah. And so after months of trawling through these records, they come up with 20 people whose deaths at the hospital were highly suspicious.

And so now the plan is to exhume the bodies from a cemetery and search for the drugs that Efren had said he used to kill the patients.

And so now the plan is to exhume the bodies from a cemetery and search for the drugs that Efren had said he used to kill the patients.

Ashley, that is the question. Because the cops start asking around and they realize that we do not have a good test to find these drugs in this situation. Oh, no. Basically, you can't pull out some easy-peasy test off our forensic science shelf that would detect what's expected to be pretty low levels of pavillard or succinylcholine in a decomposing human body.

Ashley, that is the question. Because the cops start asking around and they realize that we do not have a good test to find these drugs in this situation. Oh, no. Basically, you can't pull out some easy-peasy test off our forensic science shelf that would detect what's expected to be pretty low levels of pavillard or succinylcholine in a decomposing human body.

So bottom line, even if they exhumed those bodies from those graveyards, There's no reliable test to find these drugs inside them. They've got nothing. So now what? The story can't end here, obviously. Obviously. They get a tip that there is this place that just might be able to help them. It's a lab that some call the lab of last resort. What a name. It's where we're at in this story, right?

So bottom line, even if they exhumed those bodies from those graveyards, There's no reliable test to find these drugs inside them. They've got nothing. So now what? The story can't end here, obviously. Obviously. They get a tip that there is this place that just might be able to help them. It's a lab that some call the lab of last resort. What a name. It's where we're at in this story, right?

Yeah, true. This lab is called the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. It's this huge, sprawling facility in California that was created in the early days of the Cold War and does some truly bonkers stuff. So they design nuclear warheads. They have one of the world's most powerful lasers. And they also have this forensic science centre that can trace tiny amounts of chemicals. Why?

Yeah, true. This lab is called the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. It's this huge, sprawling facility in California that was created in the early days of the Cold War and does some truly bonkers stuff. So they design nuclear warheads. They have one of the world's most powerful lasers. And they also have this forensic science centre that can trace tiny amounts of chemicals. Why?

What are they doing at this lab? So they use it to find chemical weapons, evidence of chemical weapons in an environment. Oh. And also alleged murderers. And here's how John describes this slab.

What are they doing at this lab? So they use it to find chemical weapons, evidence of chemical weapons in an environment. Oh. And also alleged murderers. And here's how John describes this slab.

After the break, we'll get inside that high security village, the lab of last resort. Let's do it. It's coming up. Welcome back. Today on the show, I'm here with Ashley Flowers, host of Crime Junkie, and we are cracking the case of Efren Saldivar, a healthcare worker who's suspected of killing dozens of patients. Wide open. Let's do it.

After the break, we'll get inside that high security village, the lab of last resort. Let's do it. It's coming up. Welcome back. Today on the show, I'm here with Ashley Flowers, host of Crime Junkie, and we are cracking the case of Efren Saldivar, a healthcare worker who's suspected of killing dozens of patients. Wide open. Let's do it.

So we're now heading to the Forensic Science Center at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California. The lab of last resort. And it's now up to some serious nerds to try to detect the tiny amounts of drugs in bodies that have been buried for years. Mm-hmm. Armando Alcaraz is an analytical chemist who works at Lawrence Livermore, and he was on the team who had to now create this test.

So we're now heading to the Forensic Science Center at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California. The lab of last resort. And it's now up to some serious nerds to try to detect the tiny amounts of drugs in bodies that have been buried for years. Mm-hmm. Armando Alcaraz is an analytical chemist who works at Lawrence Livermore, and he was on the team who had to now create this test.

And when he heard about what he had to do, he was like, Oh my God, where are we going to find this stuff?

And when he heard about what he had to do, he was like, Oh my God, where are we going to find this stuff?

So here's what they have to do. Let me describe the needle and the haystack. So needle is the drugs. The haystack are the loads of other chemicals that would be in these decomposing bodies. Armando told us that some of the patients were smokers. So... Tobacco would have been contaminating the tissue. So would any embalming fluid used in the burying process.