Zach

Well, he says in The Great Divorce, this is a quote, he says that hell is a state of mind.

You never said a truer word.

and every state of mind left to itself every shutting up of the creature within the dungeon of his own mind is in the end hell but heaven is not a state of mind so there's the there's the the contrast of right this isn't dualism heaven is not a state of mind heaven is reality itself all that is fully real

is heavenly.

For all that can be shaken will be shaken, and only the unshakable remains.

That's that nod to the Hebrew writer there, which I think, I love what he does with it.

I don't, I mean, to me, I don't think he's making a polemic on any of that, right?

Is he making a case for heaven, or I'm sorry, for hell being an eternal torment or annihilation?

I don't think that's his point.

I think what he's

trying to get the reader to understand is that hell is is kind of a state of mind and even when you he says in that book too i don't have this quote pulled up but when you're in hell you'll look back at all the moments that you thought you were in heaven right all those moments of ecstasy when you were like when you were living it up you were having you live in your best life and you'll realize oh my goodness i was in hell the entire time

And then the contrast to that is those who are in heaven will look back on all of those moments that we thought we were in hell, the problem of pain.

We'll look back at the hardest moments of our life.

We'll look back at the most pronounced suffering that we experienced and we'll realize we were in heaven the entire time.

And I love the way that that kind of plays out because it really does paint the picture more as a...

but the word would be an ontological participation.

We're participating in the very nature of God when we're in heaven, and to not participate or to be in God's presence actually is hell.

And I think the Scripture supports that, right?

I mean, Paul says that in his letter to the church in Thessalonica, but to be in hell is to be shut out from the presence of the Lord.

Go ahead.