Chapter 1: What is discussed at the start of this section?
Well, in this episode, Donnie Brasco himself, at least that was his deep cover name, Joe Pistone joins us and talks us all the way through the crazy FBI undercover mafia world. Also, Mayhem's coming in. He's doing the news, and we'll do all that right after this.
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Chapter 2: How did Joe Pistone become an undercover FBI agent?
You take the bus and go to jail. You would never go?
No.
I mean, you never give it up? No. And I'll tell you a story of what happened. I was stealing a car in Polk County, Florida. And the customer was in Miami. So we hooked the car up about 3 o'clock in the morning. And I'm driving it to Miami. I get stopped. Now, I had a nine millimeter in my back. And so the cops, there's no tags on the car or anything. So he actually was a Florida State Trooper.
So he says, you got no tags in this car. I says, I know. I said, I work for the dealership. I'm delivering it to Miami. I have to get it there in the morning. So he said, do you mind if I look through the car? I says, no. So he, you know, it's brand spanking new car. So I popped the trunk, he looks through and everything.
And in the meantime, I'm making sure he can't see the, the bulging, you know, in my back millimeter, nine millimeter. And, um, So he says, okay. He says, where are you delivering it? So I told him a dealership in Miami where I was delivering. He said, okay. That was the last time I ever carried a gun working undercover. Because I figured, what am I going to do? He's going to bust.
If I get caught, you know, he's going to bust me for the gun. Right. And it's a whole lot of magilla. So I never carried a gun other than that working undercover. So there is no talking to a supervisor once they bring you into the precinct. You have to stay undercover. And I guess the guys you're trying to fool, you get more street cred if you just got arrested, right?
Yeah, you get arrested and then, you know, you get a phone call. So what you do, you have a contact agent, right? that has a, you know, that has an unlisted number or a hello, we call it a hello number. And you would call him whenever they gave you your phone call. And you make like he's your attorney. And then they'll send an attorney down to bail you out. The FBI. Yeah, yeah. Right.
But you never tell whoever's arresting you that. No, no. Because why?
Well, because you don't know if there's any leaks.
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Chapter 3: What challenges did Joe face while undercover?
Right. You can't pass yourself off as this person without knowing anything about this subject. That's exactly right. Right. So you became an expert in that. That was your story. And now you're hobnobbing with these guys. Right. And they sort of trust you because you seem authentic and you have some field of expertise. And then now what?
Right.
Well, after— And what was the beef with the guys in Colombo? Well, to back it up, how I got into the bartender, right? It's a long story, but you have to know your enemy. You've read The Art of War, right? Sun Tzu. Well, you've got to know your enemy. Right. So my enemy at the time was the Mafia. Because we knew that they were individuals. And like I said, I knew about them growing up.
But you know how the structure is. Do they have any rules and regulations? And the mafia does. They have a lot of rules. One of them at the time was no facial hair, right? You got to dress nice. Well, I had a bushy mustache at the time. No facial hair? Yeah. Like George Steinbrenner. At the time, right? Wow. Yeah. Interesting. They wanted you to dress neat.
You know, you didn't have to be... And... If you're not a made guy, you know what a made guy is. Somebody that's been, for your audience, somebody that's been inducted into a particular mafia family, that's a made guy. If I'm not a made guy, if I'm just an associate, and I get into an argument with a made guy, I can't embarrass him in front of people. Right. Right? That's one rule. That's a rule.
How long does it take to get made? It all depends. It all depends. Yeah, I guess there's no set number. But what I mean is, like, if you're really into this and you're Italian, I don't know if you need to be Italian to get made or not. Maybe that is a good fellow saying.
Yeah, you have to be Italian.
But let's just say you're Paisan and you're really focused and you follow all the rules. Is it 10 years? Well, like, take me, for example, right? I got in with the – I was with the Bananos for – Maybe five, five and a half years. And I was proposed for membership. To be made. To be made. All right. Now, I know guys that were around for 10, 15 years before they got made. It all depends.
It depends. It all depends. It depends on who you're with, who your captain is. If you were a big drinker. They didn't want you.
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Chapter 4: How did Joe's infiltration into the Mafia begin?
Right. Yeah. And then I jump on another flight under a different name.
Chapter 5: How does Joe Pistone manage his undercover operations?
Would you do it under Joe? No, I do it under another ID that the FBI, I had gotten from the FBI. You never wanted to get your name on any piece of paper. No. Right. So you would leave a paper trail, so you had to go to California first. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And then you'd... And then I'd check, and you always had to check in. Uh-huh.
You know, so I would call from California, you know, and say, hey, I'm here. And I had a number out there that if they were looking for me, they could call. And somebody would answer the phone and say, well, hold on a minute. He's out now. He'll call you back. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you had to check in all the time, huh? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Kind of, you know, they couldn't just give you a couple days off, huh? You had to check in? No. It's interesting. And who'd you call? I would call Lefty or Sonny. Uh-huh. Yeah. Back on the landline days, right? Yeah, back in the landline days, yeah. And they just go, all right, I'm California. Yeah, I'm here, you know, and if you need me, you know, you can get me at this number. Uh-huh. Yeah.
Chapter 6: What illegal activities did the Mafia focus on?
And so it was drugs, it was gambling. Yeah. It was any prostitution in there? No, no. These guys, the guys I was with never dealt in prostitution. Did they look down on it? Yeah, my guys did. My guys did, yeah. Now, what they had was... Back in the day, they had strip clubs. Right. But they themselves were not involved in my guys.
When I say my guys, Sonny Black's crew that I was with were not involved in prostitution out of the clubs. Right. But they were called titty bars, I guess is what you called them back in the day. Was... When you see a movie like Goodfellas, do you go, that seems pretty accurate?
Yeah, pretty much.
Yeah. What do you think in the accuracy? Donnie Brasco or Goodfellas? Donnie Brasco. More accurate? Yeah. Why?
Why?
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Chapter 7: How do movies like Goodfellas and Donnie Brasco compare in accuracy?
Because it showed more of a day-to-day life. These guys weren't always out in suits and ties and... I mean, we went to clubs and stuff, but the mob is like really a step down. You know what I'm saying? No. You've seen the movies. They've got palatial offices. Right, right.
It's not that glamorous.
It's not that glamorous. It's not that glamorous, you know. What is true is the treachery. You know, there's a lot of jealousy. There's a lot of treachery. And the jealousy is, hey, you're my captain. I'm closer to you than this guy is. He's jealous of that. Right. I'm making more money than he is. He's jealous of that because the captain – look, it's all about money.
The captain, you know, is drawn to me because I'm – you know, everybody has to kick up. You're an earner. You have to be an earner. Did – so is it – What shape is the mob in now, if at all? And what was it when you were there? Meaning, let's just say I took a business, you know what I mean? I said Sears.
Yeah.
I go, well, when I was a kid, man, Sears, there was Sears everywhere. There was 10, right in my 10-mile radius. They go, what about Sears now? I go, it's not really a thing anymore. It used to be the catalog. We used to go there Christmas shopping. It was a big part, and it's gone. But there's still a couple out there. You could find a whatever.
Maybe it's trying to make a comeback, but it's not the Sears that I remember when I was a kid. Is it kind of that way with the mob?
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Chapter 8: What is the current state of the Mafia compared to the past?
Yes, it is. Back in the day, there wasn't anything that moved in the country that the mob didn't get a piece of. Any commerce. Any commerce, they didn't move. Right. They didn't get a piece of it. We talking the 50s, the 60s, the 40s? 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, into the mid-80s until we start knocking the hell out of them, okay? Back in the day, they owned politicians, okay?
They corrupted law enforcement, okay? They corrupted judges, okay? Today... We're talking about the Italian Mafia in the United States. They're just another organized crime group. Why? We took the unions away from them. They don't control the Teamsters like they did. And you know the Teamsters controlled everything that moved in the country. They don't control politicians like they did.
They don't control law enforcement like they did, and they don't control judges the way they did. They're just another criminal element of the country. It's a lot like Scientology. They used to have a lot of power, and now not as much, but they're still around.
They're still around, yeah. Now, will you ever wipe them out? No, you'll never, because— It's human nature. People don't want to work. People want to be thieves. You notice all the big busts in gambling.
Although gambling is legal, right, all over the place, people still bet with bookies. Why? I don't know. Why? Why? Number one, you don't want to be on paper. You go to a casino, you win, you're on paper. You win big, you're paying government taxes.
You bet with your bookie. There's no paper. It's between you and your bookie. And if you win, you're not paying taxes. You're under the radar.
Now, it's kind of like they legalized marijuana and people still buy the stuff that's not the government certified, approved, whatever. It's just sort of like being off the books. Yeah, exactly. And also there's money to be saved. Yeah. So it's sort of on the way out.
Now, were the other, you know, Venezuelan drug cartels and stuff like that, were there other groups, international groups, trying to kind of – infiltrate or take some of your turf or any of that back when you were at it? Yeah, back in the day, the Russians, the Albanians, they all deferred to the mafia. No more today. No more today. So back then, they knew their place. Right.
Now, the Albanians and the Russians, they do their thing, and they don't worry about the American mafia at all. Mm-hmm. Interesting. So, I mean, there was a pecking order. There was respect. There was stuff you did. You know, stuff like no facial hair. Yeah. Dress nicely. Stuff like that. In fact, they told me I had to shave my mustache.
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