Rebroadcast: An FBI agent went undercover in America’s extremist groups. Here’s what he learned.
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What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Hey there, it's Shamita here. Our team is taking a break over the holidays. So while we're away, we wanted to share an audience favorite from earlier this year. This was actually our most listened to episode of In Conversation for 2025. I know it stuck with me. I hope you enjoy it. This is In Conversation from Apple News. I'm Shamita Basu. Today, the undercover FBI agent who infiltrated America's new Nazi groups.
If you've ever seen photos of modern day militia groups or white supremacist groups, you've probably noticed some common themes among the members. Mostly men, mostly white, in tactical gear with tattoos, bandanas and patches displaying their beliefs. And if my guest today, Scott Payne, were in one of those photos, you probably wouldn't be able to tell him apart from the rest of them.
I usually say it jokingly, but I'm like, these are my people. When I say these are my people, I'm not saying a white supremacist group are my people. I'm just saying my skill set and my look and what I do leads me to those kind of cases.
Scott is a retired FBI agent who spent part of his career undercover in American hate groups. He's out with a new book called Codename Pale Horse, How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis. It's a remarkable account, not only of his singular career, but also of the many criminal and hate groups that are operating in America today.
You've got, I'm not gonna say millions, like there's millions of white supremacists and Nazis are gonna be on your doorstep tomorrow, but let's just say that there are thousands and people are still being recruited.
According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, as of 2023, there were 165 active white nationalist groups in the United States, the highest number ever recorded. During Scott's time in the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force, he worked several cases inside these groups. In one case, his undercover persona actually went through the ceremony to become a Ku Klux Klan member. For another, he befriended a young extremist who idolized Dylann Roof, the man who killed nine people in a Charleston church in 2015.
What does Scott Payne share about his undercover experiences?
In that case, Scott was able to deter his target from committing murder. Scott worked on this book with Canadian journalist Michelle Shepherd, who also produced a podcast series about his story.
I'm a southern, conservative, 6'4", 260, tattooed biker guy. And I'm a Christian. I'm a Christ follower. And she's agnostic. She's liberal. If you look on paper, it's almost polar opposites. And she laughed how she was going to capture my voice. But she did good. She did very good.
Scott's career spans 28 years, and he started by going undercover with organized criminal groups before transitioning into extremist hate groups. I sat down with Scott to hear about his time as an undercover agent, what he learned, and what drew him to this work.
I started as a cop in South Carolina, and I was a uniformed patrol cop for approximately three years.
What common themes exist among modern extremist groups?
And then I went to Vice of Narcotics. I made investigator at Vice of Narcotics. So I'm working sources, and I'm going and getting certified in undercover techniques at the academy. I'm going and getting certified in technical surveillance and things like that. And I start doing some street level drug buys and other things. And I got the bug. I mean, I just I loved it. But if you're in a county and that's the only county you were, I mean, you're inside the county limits. How many times can I shave my facial hair a different way, cut my hair a different way, wear different clothing, drive different cars before everybody knows, you know?
Yeah. Yeah.
I always thought that. Wouldn't it be cool if there was a database where everybody who's certified is in there and then maybe far away, it's like, hey, we need somebody who looks like a biker to come here and go to this bar or whatever. That'd be cool. And when I got in the FBI, I knew I wanted to get in the undercover program. I was learning about it and what they did. And that's kind of what you do. You go through the process. If you get through and you get certified and you start finding work, you can pretty much go anywhere.
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Chapters
5 chapters
1
What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
0:00–2:18
2
What does Scott Payne share about his undercover experiences?
2:18–3:19
3
What common themes exist among modern extremist groups?
3:19–11:24
4
How did Scott Payne transition from organized crime to extremist groups?
11:24–20:14
5
What challenges did Payne face while undercover in the Outlaws motorcycle gang?
20:14–27:37
Speakers
3 identifiedMore from Apple News Today
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