Rachel Zoffness (on pain)
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What is discussed at the start of this section?
Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman. Hi. We have a guest today with the cutest last name perhaps we've ever had, Rachel Zoffness.
Yeah, this was a great episode.
I just love that last name.
It's a good last name. It's a little misleading because this isn't a Zoff episode.
Although it is in also another way.
I guess.
She is a leading pain psychologist and neuroscientist. You guys, this episode is so incredible. I think it's one of the best of the year. It's so many of us know, as you learn in here, There's 1.8 billion people in the world suffering from chronic pain. And there's 100 million Americans. And we don't understand how we experience pain, truly. And this is an incredible explanation of how it actually works. And it's quite an empowering take on it.
It is.
Yeah, so her book is called Tell Me Where It Hurts, The New Science of Pain and How to Heal. I have already sent it to two people. who I know who suffer from chronic pain. This is a great one. Please forward it to anyone in your life who's experiencing chronic pain.
Please enjoy Rachel Zoffness.
It's such a pleasure to meet you.
Why is pain considered an empowering topic?
Are you a hugger? Yes, let's do it. Monica, you must know how this started. This is terrifying for me. I'm like a library mouse bookworm. I'm like not a public facing person.
Okay, well you're already so warm feeling.
But listen to what happened. I saw Rob by the staircase when I left the house. So by the time I got out and went up the stairs to grab my drink, I saw that he was in the bathroom. And I go, Jesus, what are you taking a shit in there? It was Rachel. I was like, don't you wish I was?
Oh, no. Is that terrible? It's funny. Oh, my God. Did you get really scared?
No. Good Lord. I know where I am. Come on.
What is the significance of the biopsychosocial model in pain management?
Even for me.
Yeah, even for you.
You would not do that. We have a friend in common also. Who? Do you see the person who wrote the endorsement on the top of the book? Who did it? Oh, I did see that. Yes. Anna Lemke. I'm obsessed with her. Oh, yes. She's the reason I teach at Stanford. Because addiction, medicine, and pain are best friends. Yeah, that's right. So you're down presumably from San Francisco. Do you live there? Yeah, I'm in the Bay Area. But I'm originally a New Yorker, which is why I have an attitude problem and I wear too much black and I curse all the time. I feel like I'm in good company. Those are good attributes. I thought you said you were like a church mouse. Library mouse? Very, very different than church mouse. Yeah, super different.
People are pervs. I think. They're like in the nurse category. What's happening? Don't know what's happening. Yeah, no. I was like the kid who was shy and quiet. Shy and quiet. Quiet and shy. And was in the library reading all the time. Books for my friends. Different than a church mouse. That is different. You're right. How has teaching been for you? Because that requires a ton of get up in front of people and speak. What's funny is that during the pandemic, this thing happened where I was supposed to give all these talks and I was actually doing that because it was partially a treatment for my own performance anxiety and public speaking anxiety. The treatment is exposure therapy, right? Like if you never do it, you never get through it.
So I had all these talks planned and then everything got canceled. I was like, okay, what do I do now? So I started planning virtual talks and I started cold pitching podcast hosts. And I pitched a couple of people who actually had really big platforms and I didn't realize it at the time. As I started doing more and more podcasts, I think I did like 42 of them. Wow. Oh my goodness. And like Ezra Klein came calling. And by the time I did that one, I had done so many that I felt pretty secure in what I wanted to say. And I feel very passionate about the topic. And I keep my patience in my mind when I talk about the topic. So I'm sweating through my clothes.
Well, that's also because it's 500 degrees. I'm so hot.
It's also 90 degrees. Oh my God, I never had that. But you can also take off your sweater.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What is discussed at the start of this section?
0:00–1:30
2
Why is pain considered an empowering topic?
1:30–2:14
3
What is the significance of the biopsychosocial model in pain management?
2:14–9:11
4
How do psychological factors influence the experience of pain?
9:11–1:07:33
5
How does social medicine relate to emotional health?
1:07:33–1:07:47
6
What is the significance of therapy in managing pain?
1:07:47–1:08:24
7
What are the challenges of addressing addiction in treatment?
1:08:24–1:09:26
8
How do societal perceptions affect pain management?
1:09:26–2:03:39