A recording of an intimate conversation at Ludlow House, where the venerable Jad Abumrad asked me some questions about Gear. For images (and the link to the game I talked about) head to articlesofinterest.substack.com Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices
Chapter 1: What is the significance of supporting Radiotopia for podcasters?
In this world where you're expected to be a media patron by contributing to like one podcast at a time. Let me tell you how you can really get the most out of your year end donations by giving to Radiotopia. Radiotopia is a collective of podcasts, some of the best podcasts in the world. And I'm not saying that because I'm a part of Radiotopia. I was a fan of these shows long before I joined.
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Chapter 2: How does OMGYes contribute to the conversation about pleasure and intimacy?
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Go to radiotopia.fm slash donate and contribute whatever feels right to you. Thank you so much. There's new research on pleasure that's actually fascinating. And the site OMGYes makes it accessible to everyone. OMGYes shares findings from the largest ever study into women's pleasure and intimacy.
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omgyes is consulted by people of all genders, so hooray for generous lovers, right? You'll find specific research-backed techniques. It's the science of sexual generosity in action. See what they discovered today at omgs.com. That's O-M-G-Y-E-S dot com. Hey, it's Avery.
Okay, I have to admit, I debated whether or not I should put this on the feed because I was like, is it self-indulgent to post an interview with myself? Maybe it is. But this was unlike any other interview that I've ever been able to do because I was interviewed live on stage by one of my true heroes, Jad Abumrad. He is the founder of Radiolab.
And currently, he is the host of this beautiful show called Fela Kuti, Fear No Man. And it is a portrait, warts and all, of the artist Fela Kuti. And he's Jad Abumrad. So he brings his signature blend of philosophy and sound design and music theory all together with just some incredible reporting.
And I was just completely chuffed when he asked if he could interview me live on stage at this club called Ludlow House in New York City as part of an ongoing series made by On Air Presents. And this was a really small crowd. It was this very intimate little space. And so I was like, you know what? Let me just put it beyond the room. We'll call it an epilogue.
Just as a disclaimer, I mean, Jad and I are just talking on stage. I'm talking off the dome. This is not my normal rehearsed fact checked sort of thing. So sorry if I made a mistake, especially if you're from Finland and I got parts of your history wrong. If you're like, why is she talking about Finland? Just listen, you'll hear.
Okay, hi. So excited for you all to be here. So the rules of engagement are simple. I'm going to ask Avery a bunch of questions, and then you guys will have a chance to ask questions. So just log any thoughts or questions that I forget to ask or that come up for you as you're listening, and we'll throw it. throw it to you at the end.
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Chapter 3: What unique experience did the host have while being interviewed by Jad Abumrad?
And it navigates that boundary.
Huh. That's really interesting. So it's suddenly thinking of like semiotics, I guess, right? It's like what is the signaling and what the signals mean.
Yeah, it's how you're choosing to stand out and fit in at the same time. I've heard it once said, this is, I'm totally paraphrasing some very famous, it was like George Simmel or someone, so this isn't me, but this idea that fashion results from our need to stand in, to stand out and fit in.
Like if we all wanted to stand out, we would all just sort of wear the craziest thing we could possibly think of and we'd all look really, really different. And if we all wanted to look exactly the same, we'd all just be in uniform. But fashion is this very delicate dance of wanting to look individual, yet wanting to look like everybody else.
And looking like everybody else carries a bit of a, like, come on, sheeple. It has a bit of a derogatory tone to it, but I think it's actually really beautiful. It's the way we read each other. It's the way that we... know maybe who will have something in common with us. It's how we follow each other.
I think there's something very, very sweet and very lovely that the more time you start to spend with someone, you kind of start dressing like them. You kind of start dressing like your group of friends. It's this way that we, like this even happens in the animal kingdom. Do you remember there was this phenomenon of orcas wearing salmon as hats? No.
Oh, yeah.
This is a real thing. Like one orca started wearing a salmon as a hat and then others started following. It's like a thing. It's not just us. And it's not just about clothing. So this is something that I also like to say about fashion is that I think about fashion in the fashion exists in the same way that like love exists. Love exists. Love is real.
It's like a feeling that you have and it's out there. And it is commodified. And it is used to sell you things. And because it exists and it is so strong in you, it is easily hijacked. And fashion is real. Fashion exists. It exists under capitalism. It existed under feudalism. It exists under communism. It's just like, it's a part of, we are always looking towards each other.
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Chapter 4: What insights about fashion does Avery Truffleman share during the discussion?
I wonder if you could sort of, well, this is a bit of a spoiler, but you're all here. Tell the story of camouflage a little bit, and and that drama and how it unfolds and how you got access to it.
Camouflage is an insane story that I'm obsessed with now. Um, so when you're on the subway, sometimes you see like people in camouflage walking around and it never dawned on me to ask, like, who are they? Who are those guys? Cause I was like, I don't know. They're, military people.
You mean like soldiers or the police?
I was like, but now I'm like, are they soldiers or are they police? Because sometimes you see police wearing camouflage and it just says police on them. Or you see the images from Chicago recently and you see people looking like soldiers just wearing these bulletproof vests that say police. And I never quite realized that how similar soldiers and police actually dress now.
And so much of it is tied up with camouflage. Because not only is everybody wearing camouflage, they're basically wearing the same camouflage. Not only are soldiers and police wearing the same camouflage, SWAT teams are wearing the same camouflage. And Border Patrol is wearing the same camouflage. And the National Guard is wearing the same camouflage.
And it's the same camouflage that Oath Keepers are wearing and a lot of militia groups. And it's like, why is everybody wearing the same exact camouflage?
Was that the question that you started with? Was it like, wow, who makes this camouflage?
That wasn't the question that I started with, but it was what I started noticing afterwards. And the way we all got to this place was functionally through a trend cycle. It was like everybody copying a trend. And what happened was, long, long, long, very interesting story short, there's this company that's here in Brooklyn. They're in the Navy Yard. They're these...
for lack of a better word, hipster art school students. They went to Cooper Union and they designed, they were like, we can make money designing stuff for the military. And they designed this camouflage, this cool looking camouflage that they were like, this will work. It's kind of like that line from Anchorman, like 70% of the time it works all the time.
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Chapter 5: How does the history of outdoor clothing relate to American identity?
Well, it is regulated for the manufacturers, but no one's gonna need to see your ID for you to buy it. People wear it for hunting.
So there's not a government-issued camouflage? Because you see dudes at the gym all in camouflage, and you're like, why? You're at the gym.
Yeah.
But those people, is that the same camouflage?
So the government issue one is technically different, but if you look at them next to each other online, you can't tell them apart. The government one is called OCP, operational camouflage pattern, but it looks almost exactly the same as multicam. One's a little more brown and one's a little more green, but they are essentially the same. It's so confusing.
And how do you get, I mean, this is, because this is one of those interesting stories that's sort of hiding in plain sight, but I had never heard it until your podcast. How do you go about getting people to talk? Was it an easy situation where people were just wanting to tell the story and waiting for someone to show up? Or did you have to sort of like sneak in through the side door?
Like what was your process?
It was really, really hard. Thank you for asking this, Chad. We were talking about this backstage. It's really hard in a podcast. I really wanted to toot my own horn in this, but I didn't want to be in the show and be like, these were really hard interviews to get. This is incredibly rare. But you don't really want to pat yourself on the back in your own show. The company who makes Multicam...
I don't think they've ever talked to the press in a serious way or told the story. And if they have, it hasn't been in like 10 years.
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Chapter 6: What role does military influence play in contemporary fashion?
Oh, my God.
Yeah, yeah. That's what I kept thinking of as I was working on the military. I was like, I want to touch a horse. I can't wait. I want to do the Western stuff.
Wow, wow. That's such a reveal at the very end here.
Well, I don't know when I'll be able to do it, but that's the dream. But I knew when I was doing the last season, I was like, the next one's going to be military. Okay. And so I'm like... I'm calling it. This next one's, and of course I'm like, this one will just be like a fun little one. No, it won't. No way. Like these things all end up having horrendous, gruesome histories.
Totally. Oh yeah. As soon as you go out West, that's, that's a lot of, a lot of blood on our hands there.
Yeah. Well the thing, okay. The question I'm really curious about is why all colonial cultures have cowboys.
Hmm.
Right. Like Australia has cowboys. Canada has cowboys. We have cowboys. They all sort of wear the same stuff. And it's like, did we export that? Did that like naturally sort of like grow from the colonial mindset? Like like the colonizer plus ranch land equals cowboy. Like how did we all get to this place? Yeah. And also the aesthetics are so interesting.
Like the cowboy boot is obviously Mexican. And then, okay, actually I happen to have an example right here. I'm wearing a shirt that I got in Hungary. And if you can see it, it looks kind of cowboyish. A lot of the embroidery and like cowboy looking stuff comes from Eastern Europe. And it's like this amazing blend. Like how did we, how did this get everywhere? Yeah.
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