Ethnobotanist: "We're Losing Shamanic Wisdom" — The Secrets Of The Amazon | Mark Plotkin Ph.D. #539
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What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Mark, good to have you here. Aubrey, good to be here. Many of us have heard of the stone ape theory, which is positing that the interaction with psychedelic mushrooms in particular advanced our evolution and our consciousness. You have a slightly different theory that I don't think is mutually exclusive, may include both, but it's the Java man theory.
What is Mark Plotkin's 'Mocha Java Man' hypothesis about human evolution?
Tell us about that. Most of us haven't heard anything about this. Well, it's total exclusion, Aubrey.
The stoned egg theory, which was put forward by our late friend Terence McKenna, posited that when humans, pre-humans, came down from the trees for whatever reason, they saw these mushrooms. Maybe they were following big game. And in the feces of the big game, these mushrooms were sprouting up. These are definitely dung-loving mushrooms, and they're magic mushrooms. So that created cognition. Nobody's been able to explain satisfactorily why the pre-human brain became the human brain about 300,000 years ago in terms of its rapid growth in size. There's an equally interesting theory called the Donald Monkey Hypothesis, which says that when our ancestors came down from the trees, they weren't looking for magic mushrooms.
They were looking for ripe fruit because the ripest fruit falls to the ground. And what happens to ripe fruit when it falls to the ground? If it doesn't get eaten, it ferments. and creates alcohol. So that alcohol is what caused cognition and social behavior and bonding. And then my theory, I call the Mocha Java Man hypothesis, which is noting that we arose as a species in East Africa, mostly in and around the Olduvai Gorge. And at the northern edge of that, you have the original coffee forest, which is essentially what today we refer to as Southern Ethiopia. And coffee berries are bright red. You can't miss them. And they're kind of tasty. And they're full of caffeine. So I like to compare theories by saying, imagine three prosimians running across the African savanna being chased by a hungry lion.
One of them's tripping on magic mushrooms. One is drunk on fermented fruit. and one is over-caffeinated on these coffee berries.
Which one do you think is going to survive? Well, let me tell you what happens. So the drunken one thinks they can ride the lion, and then they get eaten. And then the one on magic mushrooms has a chance to maybe occasionally ride a lion, but mostly gets eaten. And then the ones with caffeine probably figure some shit out and survive and procreate. That's how the theory goes for me.
I think your hypotheses are equally valid. I think the emotional one might try and levitate over the line and the drunk one might take it on. But the caffeinated one is most likely when they get away.
Yeah, that's super interesting. And this is your life's work, right? I mean, you've really dug deep into plant and human interactions in a variety of different ecosystems, but particularly the rainforests.
Well, I call myself an ethnobotanist, which is a person who studies the relationship between people and plants. Everybody loves the idea of following shamans through the Amazon rainforest. I've done plenty of that. But the broad explanation of ethnobotany is people and plants. That means almonds in a cornfield. And of course, as somebody who knows and loves nature, like you obviously do, it's all connected. So when you see a farmer in Iowa, he or she may or may not be aware that corn originated on the Mexico-Guatemala border. And even though we have high-growing crops, high-yielding corn in Iowa and everywhere else, that we still need those wild and semi-domesticated varieties of corn in Mexico and Guatemala to increase yields, increase pests and diseases, and increase resistance to climate stress.
Yeah, that makes total sense. You know, one of the things that's been particularly interesting for me in my own, oh man, how many years has it been? 28 years of work with the psychedelic medicines is in going deep with the shamans of the jungle, particularly the ayahuasqueros and the curanderos of the deep forest.
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Chapters
5 chapters
1
What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
0:00–0:20
2
What is Mark Plotkin's 'Mocha Java Man' hypothesis about human evolution?
0:20–13:38
3
How does ethnobotany define the relationship between people and plants?
13:38–22:30
4
What surprising shamanic abilities and cases did Plotkin witness in the Amazon?
22:30–56:49
5
Which plant and fungal discoveries link ancient rituals to modern medicines?
56:49–1:00:38
Speakers
2 identifiedMore from Aubrey Marcus Podcast
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