Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Hello, it's Nicky.
And John. And we're here to introduce one of our rerun episodes of Backlisted. And this is one from seven years ago, from May 2019. And it features the novel that was, I think, voted the second best book of all time.
No pressure. This is the second best book of all time. According to who?
In the recent poll organised by The Guardian.
We don't know who the people were who voted. Maybe they're all backlisted listeners.
A lot of writers I know have voted in it. But the book is Toni Morrison's Beloved. And our guest was Priti Teneja, who had at that point published one novel, We That Are Young, which had won the 2018 Desmond Elliott Prize. And she was to go on after recording this podcast to write another really extraordinary, quite harrowing book called Aftermath.
She was, when we talked to her, she was still running a prison writing business.
program and it was one of the people who had been a pupil of hers ended up being the protagonist the person who i think murdered five people on the london bridge attacks later on in 2019 but her book about that whole process and about being a teacher and what things going wrong is is a really really really remarkable book i talked about it on the podcast when it came out
But this is all about Toni Morrison. And I love this podcast because Pretty is so articulate. I think in terms of pure literary insight into a book and being able to really nail why Beloved is such an important novel and such a great novel. She really takes it. I mean, she talks so eloquently. articulately and sensitively and intelligently as a novelist herself.
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Chapter 2: What is the significance of Toni Morrison's Beloved?
Imagine it's May 2019 and you're just tuning in to Batlisted for the first time. Enjoy it, everybody.
MUSIC PLAYS
So how was Guernsey?
It was really great. We had a lovely time and they looked after us very nicely. So, John, what did we do? What was the highlight of our trip?
Without doubt, the highlight of our trip, given that I was prevented from consuming the local shellfish, the orma, which you can only catch when certain spring tides are coming in, the orma-ing tides, and we'd missed it, was we went to Victor Ugo's house. Victor Hugo was in exile on Guernsey for how many years? About 15 years. And he wrote, finished Les Mis when he was there.
And he also wrote a book sort of set in and around Guernsey, The Toilers of the Sea, which I've now bought a copy of.
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Chapter 3: How did Preti Taneja's background influence her writing?
Have you? Not in French, but I am going to read it. I got Guernseyed up when I was there.
You did? I can confirm that, yeah. Okay. He looks quite Sarnian. If you were wearing a Guernsey. Have you ever been to Channel Islands?
Actually, my best friend Faye lives in Guernsey.
Does she?
Ah, okay.
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Chapter 4: What insights does Preti Taneja offer about the writing process?
So I was hoping that there would be still people speaking Patois there. But I think it's only the old people, really. Because of the war, the children were all evacuated. So it was obviously occupied by the Nazis. Ready to go? Good. Here we go. Hello and welcome to Backlisted, the podcast that gives new life to old books.
Today, you find us on the outskirts of Cincinnati in the years after the Civil War. The snow is falling heavily as we stand on Bluestone Road, staring at number 124, a house apart, a house with secrets, a house with ghosts.
I'm John Mitchinson. And I'm Andy Miller. Joining us today is Preeti Taneja.
Hi. Hello. Hi, Preeti.
Preeti is a novelist and teacher in prisons and in universities. Her novel, We That Are Young, which we loved on Backlisted, published by the excellent Galley Beggar Press, won the 2018 Desmond Elliott Prize for the best debut of the year.
It was also shortlisted for the Republic of Consciousness Prize and the Books in My Bag Reader's Choice Awards, and longlisted for the JALAC Prize, the Folio Prize, and for Europe's most prestigious award for a work of world literature, the Prix Jean Mikalski. It has been translated into seven languages to date. Are there more in the offing?
I hope so. And there's another award which I was very proud to be listed for in India called the Shakti Bhatt First Book Award, which is given in honour of a young woman who died called Shakti Bhatt. And, you know, it's amazing to be recognised in all of these different ways by people in different parts of the world.
Did you expect, because didn't this book take several years to write?
Well, it took a long time to write. It took like three or four years to write, but it took about the same amount of time to find a home.
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Chapter 5: What themes are explored in the character of Beloved?
The language just soldered itself into me like DNA because I was taught it very well. And years later, obviously, decades later, basically, when I met Sonny, I just wanted to thank him for that moment. And maybe something about what he likes in a book resonated through mine, I hope, because I think you are what you read in many ways. You're made up of all these different books.
We believe that one here. We'll come on to that in relation to... The book we're going to be talking about and its relationship to other books, but we're not quite there yet.
Great. You might have guessed that the book that Ritchie is here to talk to us today about is Beloved by Toni Morrison, first published in 1987 by Knopf, Sonny Mesa. which went on to win the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction in 1988, among many other prizes, and was controversially shortlisted but didn't win the National Book Award in 1997.
But in 2006, the New York Times declared Beloved the best work of American fiction of the previous 10 years.
Now, we just want to say to everyone listening that our starting point for talking about both Beloved and Toni Morrison is this, that we all believe that Beloved is one of the greatest novels of the 20th century and that Toni Morrison is the greatest living American writer.
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Chapter 6: How does Morrison's prose convey multiple meanings?
And we believe it so strongly, it's not even an opinion. No. It's the starting, it's going to be the starting point of this discussion. So we're not going to be sitting here going, is she as good as Don DeLillo? It doesn't matter. The book is important. She is incredibly important. I feel both honoured. and intimidated about having to talk about this particular book.
But I'm so pleased that we decided to do it with you, Priti, because it's just a masterpiece, this novel.
Yes, it absolutely is. And, you know, that feeling of being awed and intimidated is exactly right. But at the same time, She draws you in to a sense of bliss almost with the way she uses language and the way she constructs a sentence and the things that she can bury within that. It's like falling in love to read this book.
Well, keep listening, everyone.
LAUGHTER
But first, John, what have you been reading this week?
I've been reading a really lovely collection of stories by a writer called Lisa Blower, who is from Stoke, and it's called It's Gone Dark Over Bill's Mothers, which is a... In fact, I'm going to read you a little bit, which puts it in context. It is a collection of short pieces... If you can think of a sort of Alan Bennett monologues in a lot of ways, they're really wonderfully funny, wise.
A lot of them are set in the 1980s. I think they were written over a period of 10 years. Lisa Blower is featured in the anthology of working class writers that Unbound have just published, Common People, edited by Kit Duvall. And she was one of the writers that really stood out for me. She's published by Myriad Press. This is another excellent bit of small press publishing.
And if you're interested in, you know, fish paste sandwiches and going on holiday and the, you know, your legs sticking to the back of your, you know, your 1970s car. Those are all my interests. One of the stories I love in this book, there's a story called Drive in 17 Views, where it's 17 different, very short pieces about driving in cars from
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Chapter 7: What historical context surrounds the novel Beloved?
I welcome all lids that don't fit and spouts that don't bore. Who told you about me? I thought you looked familiar. Like I know you. Who's your mother? Does she live on Warrington Road? It's the eyes you see. I never forget a pair of eyes. And you've got big eyes, duck. They give you away. I hope you don't mind me saying that. My eyes like yours are sad stories.
You tell them whether you like it or not. Now come on and get warm. That's it. You need some sugar in that tea, your skin and bone. I haven't got any. Food bank was that busy last week. You forgot what you need. Do I not get to choose? Can I get some of that? What am I supposed to do with kidney beans? Heard from number nine, chinning on about the veg again.
I'd rather it frozen if you've got it, duck. Those carrots last month went black. I said to her, next time you chuck stuff out, chuck them to me. I can make meals out of onions. She says, well, give us a fiver, then I'll see what's on the turn. Of course, some faces don't want you to see them. Make out like they don't know you when they sat on it beside you at school.
Others turn up with a couple of shopping trucks, next door's baby and bare-faced cheek. It's like there's a war on, rationing all over again. My mother would say, if there's a men in the world, there'll always be wars. And my father would go, Hester. As long as there's women, there'll be men, and don't forget that it only took one woman to bring down a lifetime of men, and off he'd go again.
There was a time when you couldn't eat a meal in any decency without the potters from Stoke. Proud of every dinner table we were till those slow boats from China promised cheap, cheap, cheap. Can't grow a bloody teapot for toffee anymore. 4,000 kilns gone later and it's gone that dark over Bill's mother's as you realise just how much daylight those kilns let in. There you go. It's just lovely.
Who's it published by, please? It's published by Myriad Editions and it's gone dark over Bill's mother's. Andy, what have you been reading?
Well, when we went on our Guernsey mini break, I felt like I was on holiday, although we were working. I'm working hard, but I did feel like I was on holiday. It was really exciting to be back in Guernsey.
And so I thought what I wanted to read was something that would be a contrast to the book that we were there to discuss and also with Toni Morrison, who I was reading in preparation for this episode. And so I chose a book that was published last year and which has just come out in paperback by Porek O'Donnell called The House on Vesper Sands. Now, do you know anything about this novel, John? No.
Right. It's set in the winter of 1893. And as it starts, you are unclear what is going on. What you know is that a seamstress has been invited into a house in Mayfair, that something isn't right.
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Chapter 8: How does Beloved challenge traditional narratives of slavery?
I have a slightly queasy relationship with how I feel about plot. This has got just the right amount of plot. You can put that on the cover. The House on Vespasans has just the right amount of plot. I thought it was absolutely wonderful. A fantastic mixture of a detective novel and a ghost story and a horror fiction. And it seemed to me very consciously that...
Porek O'Donnell is bringing in Wilkie Collins and Dickens and Conan Doyle, not just in Sherlock Holmes. I'm going to read a bit in a minute with a detective, but also Conan Doyle's interest in the paranormal, in spiritualism is reflected in this book. It reminded me of The Woman in Black by Susan Hill. It reminded me of the TV series Ripper Street, John. I don't know if you, right?
So it has that really, it's got that real energy and it's sort of Victorian Baroque, but it's thrilling and stylish. And it's also really funny. It has some really wonderful set pieces.
And then he manages to do that thing that I think lots of people trying to write this kind of novel would like to do, but perhaps is more challenging than one might think, that he's able to shift gear from the modes of storytelling
Quite brilliantly, I must say, that you go from something which is making you laugh and then two pages later you're utterly horrified by what you're being presented with. And really, it's a wonderful, wonderful book. It never goes where you think it's going to go.
Is it Edwardian? Is it kind of that Victorian?
Victorian. So here's a little bit. This is a discussion between Inspector Cutter and a servant in the house where the seamstress has committed suicide. He is called Carew. But first we hear from Inspector Cutter. Inspector Cutter says, Now, will you be an obliging fellow and show us to the particular room in the upper part of the house where this misfortune occurred?
It was a room, I take it, and not a chimney or a nest in the eaves. Very good, Inspector, but I hope you will refrain from any further levity, for you find us all greatly saddened at what has occurred. "'Levity!' Inspector Cutter's face darkened, and he clamped his hand for a moment over his jaw.
For an instant Gideon imagined that some predatory creature lurked within him, and might burst from him at any moment like an unhooded hawk from its perch. "'Levity! Will you tell me, Carrow, do you keep an eye to the newspapers at all?' "'On occasion, sir, as my duties permit.' "'Did you ever read of the case of the children of Dr. St. John?' The slaughter of the St. Johns?
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