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📅 Schedule your free 30-min strategy call with Catherine ⚙️ Restart your practice in 7 days ⬇️⬇️⬇️ 3 Ways to Save on Taxes with David Mandell, JD, MBA (Ep.143) Hello, I know, I know… Taxes are NOT a very sexy topic; UNTIL you see how much fun it is to pay the least amount of taxes legally. I learned this the hard way when I was a sales rep for a fortune 500 and they would withhold 50% of my commissions for taxes. Boy I wish I knew about these 3 Ways to Save on Taxes back then! And then when I started my own business over 20 years ago, I learned about all sorts of extra taxes service providers like surgeons and consultants pay, which David will be discussing today with his 3 Ways to Save on Taxes. That's when I read Rich Dad/Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki and it blew my mind. It's all about how much you keep – NOT how much you make. So, I invited tax attorney David Mandell on to talk about preserving wealth while reducing taxes and about his 3 ways to save on taxes. David is a partner of OJM Group in Ft. Lauderdale, FL and an authority in the fields of risk management, asset protection, wealth planning, and ways to save on taxes. He speaks at the same conferences I do, and his firm has authored several books on ways to save on taxes, with the latest being "Wealth Planning for the Modern Physician" that I started reading but lawyers wrote it so its 316 pages ;-) He offers it for free to my podcast audience so listen in for the special code he gave us. Enjoy! http://www.ojmbookstore.com Enjoy! Catherine Maley, MBA ⬇️ FREE BOOK: 📕 Get my 5-Star Rated Book, "Your Aesthetic Practice — What Your Patients Are Saying," FREE! Just pay S/H ✅ STAY UPDATED: 🌐 Catherine's Website 📝 Catherine's Blog 🎤 "Beauty and the Biz" Podcast 📺 "Beauty and the Biz" Videocast 🔊 "Beauty and the Biz" on Apple Podcasts 🤝 LET'S CONNECT: ➡️ Instagram ➡️ Facebook ➡️ Twitter ➡️ LinkedIn P.S. If you need help differentiating yourself, schedule a complimentary 30-minute strategy call with me. Review Beauty and the Biz on Apple Podcasts and get my 5-star rated book. FREE! Catherine Maley, MBA: Everybody that's going to wrap it up for us today on Beauty and the Biz. If you have any questions or feedback for me, you can go ahead and leave them at my website at www.CatherineMaley.com, or you can certainly DM me on Instagram @CatherineMaleyMBA. If you've enjoyed this episode on Beauty and the Biz, please head over to Apple Podcasts and give me a review and subscribe to Beauty and the Biz so, you don't miss any episodes. And of course, please share this with your staff and colleagues. And we will talk to you again soon. Take care. "The fastest way to success is to model other successful surgeons who have what you want, but you can only see their results, not the path they took to get there. So, you continue to jump from one thing to another, hoping to find something that will work for you too, but it rarely does. So, try this shortcut instead. It's guaranteed to move you forward. I compiled my intellectual property to grow cosmetic revenues, everything I've gleaned over the years into one playbook of the most successful practices and what they do to win. Go to www.CosmeticPracticeVault.com and let's grow your cosmetic revenue." Transcript: 3 Ways to Save on Taxes with David Mandell, JD, MBA Catherine Maley, MBA: Hello, everyone. And welcome to Beauty and the Biz where we talk about the business and marketing side of plastic surgery. I'm your host, Catherine Maley author of Your aesthetic practice - What your patients are saying as well as consultant to plastic surgeons, to get them more patients and more profits. Now, normally I interview surgeons, but today. I have a special treat. We have a lawyer and his name is David Mandell. He's JD and MBA. I have an MBA too. And you have on top of that, you have, you have some good degrees there. He's a partner at OJM Group in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. He's also an authority in the fields of risk management, asset protection, as well as wealth planning. Now, David writes speaks, and he's been interviewed by Bloomberg and Fox TV. He also has a website and podcasts on these topics. He also speaks at the various medical conferences and that's how we met. And his firm has authored several books with the latest being wealth planning for the modern physician. As a matter of fact, I bought the book thinking that I could read it before our interview. It turns out it's, it's a lawyer book, of course. So, it's 316 pages. So, I did not get a chance to start it or finish it. So, I've invited him to Beauty and the Biz to talk about taxes. Now, taxes are not a very sexy topic until, and I have a caveat here, until you learn how much fun it is to save on taxes. And keep your money that, and you do it legally. Of course, now I learned this the hard way. When I was a sales rep in a fortune 500 company, a million years ago, they used to keep 50% of my commission checks on taxes. And I was shocked at that. And then when I started my own business more than 20 years ago, I learned about all sorts of new taxes that service providers, such as surgeons and consultants were paying on. That's when I read Rich dad, poor dad by Robert Kiyosaki, and that just blew my mind. His whole theme is it's all about how much you keep, not how much you make. And I thought, huh, that's a new, way to think. So, in a nutshell, I love that book. I highly recommend everybody read it like 14 times. In a nutshell, he came up with these four cashflow quadrants and they were based on where the money comes from. And those are "E" for employees. "A" for small business or self-employed, and that's where all of us hang around "B" for big business and "I" for investment and the employees and the small business paid the heaviest taxes where the big business and the investors pay minimal or no taxes. And boy, did I learn a lot about that! So, the point is. Learning these creative strategies that are available to all of us, especially through David. You going to, you're going to keep a lot more of your income by protecting it from this heavy taxation. So, let's hear what David has to say about preserving your income while keeping the tax man away. So, David Mandell welcome to Beauty and the Biz. It's a pleasure to have you. David Mandell, JD, MBA: Thank you, Catherine. And it's a pleasure to be here. And a couple of comments for, I get into three ideas that listeners can use to save taxes in 22. Yes, I am an attorney and still practicing, not recovering like some folks who start as a lawyer and do something else. But I do spend most of my time as a wealth manager these days. So, I still have my law practice, but the reason why that's important. His lawyers play a very important role and tax planning. And yet very few lawyers prepare tax returns. So, I asked physicians all the time when I'm in a conference, you know, and trying to be interactive, you know, how many folks have somebody that prepares their taxes and almost everybody does. There are some docs who still will do it themselves. Most have a CPA. And you know, right now, as we record this in February, a lot of The listeners here are working with their CPA to give them the information of what happened in 2021. And they're preparing those tax returns for our March 15th deadline or an April 15th deadline. And even if they're getting extended, they have to file some well, that's not really taxing. That's tax preparation, right? That's looking backwards to say what happened last year and preparing to return. And I say, you know, that's great and it's important to have a good tax repairer, but there's a difference between tax planning and tax preparation. And I say, you know, what do you think about tax attorneys? Almost none of them prepare taxes, but they're doing. And they're billing 5, 6, 700 bucks an hour. So, it must be something that they're doing that is valuable. Now, a subset of those do counter Versie work, meaning representing someone when they're fighting with the IRS or the state. But a lot of them don't do that at all. Either they're doing tax planning and we've built our wealth management firm around the concept of exactly kind of parallel to the rich dad, poor dad, which is the net is what's key. Right? We can't, you help these surgeons. Increase their gross, right? Better practice methods, better marketing methods, better ways to deal with patients. So, they get more referrals and more business. That's all line. And it's crucial. We help clients with is the bottom line. And that's what we're talking about today, which is net of tax. Battle mind. I also, maybe I'll come back and talk about protecting assets from lawsuits and other things they can do that are important. Okay. So, let's focus today. You asked me, he said, Hey, let's give our listeners a couple of ideas for 2022. So, I'm going to talk about three things they can do this year to save taxes. Are you ready? Okay. So, the first one, and I'm going to relate it because I like to listen and integrate to those quadrants you were talking about. So, this first one is going to be about the small business quandary. Okay. Which is taking a fresh look at your qualified retirement. That's tactic or that's strategy. Number one, meaning most of those listening here in their practice will have a 401k or a profit-sharing plan maybe. And then they do a SEP IRA. That's not technically a qualified plan, but sort of substitutes for one, or maybe they even have a debt defined benefit. But what I want folks to do or listening to this is if they have an appetite for lower taxes, that's an F now most, every surgeon will raise their hand and say, I want to save taxes. Then they should relook at their qualified plan and do a couple of things there. One look at what type of plan they have. They might do better with a different type of. Meaning, if they have a 401k, their maximum, they can put away, which is a deduction is 20,000, 20,500. A profit-sharing plan is around 60,000. A defined benefit plan is around a hundred thousand in a particular type of defined benefit plan. And there, yes, there are chapters in our book in there, and hopefully it's not too much legally shouldn't be really any. So, people can get through it, but a typical one type of defined benefit plan, a cash balance plan. We have clients putting away 200,000 a year into that, and that's a deduction. So that's going to write off for a lot of these that that's going to save folks a hundred grand a year or in that neighborhood every year that they have the planet. So, they went up first, look at what other types of plans are out there and run numbers. The nice thing about this area is they can do with a good firm like ours or another. They can actually take the census, which means all their employees and how much they make and what their age are and run numbers before you make a decision. Okay. There shouldn't be any risk involved. It's just about figuring out what's the right plan. Okay. Number two is even if you're in a plan or type of is look at the formula. Because in with a 401k with a D profit sharing plan with the five-benefit plan, they all are based on different formulas that play different roles. And people think, well, you know, this is just how much I have to put in for my employees. And that's not necessarily, so okay. That the formulas change over time and there's expertise, especially on the higher end plans, like the cash balance and defined benefit plan. If you're working with a good actuary, they may be able to work with the numbers so that you think it was going to be too expensive. Meaning your plastic surgeon, you have 10 employees. I can't do that plan. I'd love to put away a hundred, but it's going to cost me 30 for the employees. Well, maybe with the right actuary, that 30 could go down to 20 or 50. Okay. Now you're still doing something nice for your employees that you weren't doing before, but you've probably had other docs here. Talk about turnover and how important it is to keep good employees. Well, here's something you're doing well for the employees, but now you're also putting away an extra 50, 60,000 that you get to deduct right as the doc. So, it's a win-win key is formulas. So, plan type, and then formulas. The third thing is on the piece of looking at your qualified plan is don't pay too much. And I mean, don't pay too much in fees. And I lecture on this. A lot of times people will have a bundled service with the record keeper and the third-party administrator, the person who kind of does those formulas and the investment advisors that plant. So, apply a surgeon might say, you know what? This guy comes. He has all the things together and I pay one fee and it's very well coordinated. And I like that. That's what they call it. The problem with that is you actually dive into it. A lot of times the fees are too high. There are actually kickbacks going back and forth between the investment advisor and that third party administrator. So, it's great for them, but we had a plastic surgeon specific client. Himself. His spouse was the key office manager, three employees. We looked at the plan. Okay. We said, listen, it's got two problems, one it's too expensive. Two. It is geared for you too, but not for the rank and file. And guess what? If they get ahold of a lawyer, you don't perform well. You have liability. You're a fiduciary for your employee, your rank and file. Okay. So, it could be a good plan for you as an older surgeon with more risky investments and you know, things and things that you want to take advantage of, but there's not a good option for them younger. Let's say you can have my ability that or that. So, we looked at that, we took, we did our evaluation and it turns out we said, listen, we can give you a plan. We're a co-fiduciary on, which means we're on the hook. If there's ever liability, he didn't have that before, too. It's got a better menu of, of options for the couple of sort of rank and file, you know, the, the receptionist and all that. And then three, it's going to cost you about half in terms of the fees that you're getting more and you're paying less. Okay. And the only reason he knew that is because he reviewed it. He had somebody outside, take a look at it and have a, whatever you want to call a second opinion, a workup, whatever analogy you want to call. So, first idea is take a fresh look at your qualified plan. That means understand what other types of plans are there. Make sure your formulas make sense and have a review in terms of fees. Catherine Maley, MBA: Me, was that a caveat to the profit-sharing plan? I, when I'm in practices and we're looking at the benefits and the bonuses and the commissions and all of that I have net, every single surgeon has said the staff has no idea what profit sharing is. They don't care. They don't, they just don't care. And especially with the turnover going on in today's world just the reality. Is it for the rank and file or is it for the surgeon? And if, if there's a distinction there what's a better plan for the surgeon. Who's trying to save on taxes versus benefit. David Mandell, JD, MBA: Well, they're going to try, you know, the formula is going to be then. Two answers to that. One is you've got to want a formula that obviously maximize the amount the owner can put away. And if they have the cashflow to do it, they should actually look at the, the, the, a defined benefit plan and the cash balance plan, which I mentioned, which again, there's chapters in the book because that, again, we have clients in the aesthetic world who are putting a hundred thousand away for themselves, and it's, they're getting 95% of the. So, yeah, 5,000 is going to the rank and file, but they got to do something. I mean, you can't get a deduction without doing that. Otherwise, you're going to get in trouble, but if you could do something that's 95 5, then you know, even if it doesn't really act as a motivator for the employees, it's still a huge home run for you because now you're running off $95,000. Absolutely. Go ahead. So, number two, this is the big business. Okay, so that quadrant, I think it was B. So. The talk that I did when I, when you and I are together. And almost every talk that I do at medical conferences, I'll ask a raise of hand, how many people have a qualified plan, 401k profit sharing plan. And most of the docs will raise their hand. I'll say, how many people having non-qualified. And most of the docs will have a blank look on their face. So, kind of look around and maybe one or two out of, you know, 50 or a hundred in the room will raise their hand and the concept here. And again, usually I have slides that I do. I do not want to get technical here, but when I, what I'll say to the surgeons, listening, you have some friends that you went to college with, that you grew up with were really smart, but they didn't go into medicine. They went into big business. And the way they're making their wealth is in the non-qualified plan, because they could be part of Amazon. They could be part of, you know, gee any company you want to think of. But if it's a 401k, they have the same limitation of 20,000 as you and I have in our 401k, what they have. A lot of physicians don't have it. I'm going to say we don't have, because I have it. And I've been putting a lot more money in it than my qualified plan over the last eight years is a non-qualified plan. Well, because it's, non-qualified you give up. So, unlike what we just talked about, where you're going to reduce your taxes in 22, the non-qualified plan works like a Roth IRA where you pay money, goes in after tax, but it grows tax-free and if managed properly, it comes out tax free. So, I would ask, you know, the surgeon listening, if you could, because you have an income limitation, but if you don't, if you could put as much into a Roth IRA, as you wanted to, how much would you. And that's where a non-qualified plan can come in. And this is what the big businesses do. This is what they do for their executives. They're putting in hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars into their non-qualified plans for their top 5,000, 200 executives, because it's, non-qualified, they don't have to offer to any employees. So, this is something that surgeon will do just for themselves, just for them in Catherine Maley, MBA: So, you can be in practice and be a non-qualified plan. You can be a... David Mandell, JD, MBA: Yes, absolutely. And by the way, it doesn't conflict with your qualified plans. So, at OJM group, our wealth management firm, we have a 401k. And it's fine. My employees like it, I put a couple of bucks in it, but I'm putting a lot more in my non-qualified plan. Now I got to pay tax on when it goes in. Okay. That's the pain, but the, the David from retirement 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 30 years from now is so happy that I'm doing that now, because once it goes in, it's going to grow tax free in order to be able to pull it out. Tax-free okay. And. What I've found is fewer than 5% seem and fewer than 2% of medical practices have that. But when I asked surgeons two things, one. How much would you put it in a Roth IRA if you could. And they're always like, well, I put a lot more than, you know, what I'm doing. And two, I asked, do you think tax rates are going up in the future or down in the future? And almost they always say up, I say, well, let's just think about that. If you think tax rates are going up in the future, you would really value something that locks in today's rate and you don't pay tax on it again. Which is the non-qualified plan. And I'm not saying anything wrong with qualified plans, but the opposite is what we just talked about. Your 401k, you get a deduction today. There's tax-free growth, which is super valuable, but you're going to pay tax on whatever the rates are in the future. Right? So, what I tell people, if you're doing qualified plans, which most of the docs listening, this will be, you have to think about a non-qualified plan to hedge against that because for myself, Right. Retirement could be 10, 20, 30 years. I want to have flexibility. I want to have the power to pull something up. If taxes happened to be low, I could pull it out of my qualified plan. My 401k, if taxes are high, I pull it out of my non-qualified plan wherein there's no tax, right. I want to have. Diversification and most physicians don't have that. So, if number one is maximized and perfect, your qualified plan for deductions today, number two is look at non-qualified plans. Okay. As a terrific hedge against future income tax increases a terrific hedge against. Your qualified retirement plan and a way to basically get an unlimited Roth. And finally, it's a way to do what the big boys and girls do at big business, because this is what they do. Hmm. Catherine Maley, MBA: And the non-qualified are you saying you can pull that money out whenever you want in increments of whenever you want. David Mandell, JD, MBA: Yeah, because it's a non-qualified plan, the rules that apply to qualified plans because you're giving up that deduction. You're also getting free of the rules of offering to any employees you're getting free of the 59 and a half penalty before that rule, which a qualified plan like a 401k has or minimum required distributions. Like my father is a radiologist is forced to take minimum quarters. Distributions pay tax on that, out of his IRA that came from his, you know, radiology practices qual profit-sharing plan. So, all of those rules that we're accustomed to thinking about with the qualified don't apply period. So that's part of the power of it. Plus, the tax-free growth and the tax rate. Catherine Maley, MBA: It's very interesting. I'll bet it's not as popular because of that sting at the beginning. David Mandell, JD, MBA: That's easy. You got it. You know, that's why most docs will come to me and say, I haven't heard of this before. And it's like, well, your, your CPA probably never suggested it because it's not going to help you save taxes today. Right. So, what I tell clients is, listen, if you said you had a hundred thousand of cash, That you don't need. Right. And it's in addition to whatever savings you're doing after tax, you know, with firms like us, that manage money, but you don't a hundred thousand. You want to put into something. I I'd say really look at the non-qualified plan. And then let's look at your qualified plan. Maybe you want to do 50 in the profit-sharing plan and 50 in the non-qualified plan versus a hundred in the defined benefit plan. Yeah. You'll get a better deduction. But long-term, you'll be happier that you diversify, but every client's different and that's, you know, that's the beauty of what we do and working with clients. Catherine Maley, MBA: Okay. That's a good one. I didn't know about that. David Mandell, JD, MBA: Yup. Okay. Number three. And this relates to another quadrant you were talking about, which is the investment quality. So, this is basically; just make sure that your investments are managed in a tax savvy manner. Okay. And that's an easy sentence. Phrase, make sure your investments are tech savvy, but you know, there's a number of success factors in there. And one, I am going to get into the details a little bit because it's hard to sort of conceptualize without it, but again, I want everybody to get our books for free with the code we're talking about at the end. And there's great examples of this, but the first one, which is an easy concept to understand is asset location. Let's just say a surgeon has a million-dollar report for. And, and they're working with a firm like us, we manage $600 million for fiduciary, all that. And we say, listen, your ideal portfolio is going to have, you know, 40% us large cap. This is not what I do is what other experts do. And within that we want, and the client wants, you know, certain percentage of dividend pink. So, let's just say at the end of their portfolio, there's a hundred thousand dollars in some major stocks that paid dividends. Okay. We want to make sure that that is in their qualified plan or IRA. We want that location to be right, because there's no reason for them to be paying tax on those dividends. Right? This is, they're not in retirement. They're just, they like the dividends because it's a steady rate of return 6%, but they want to reinvest. Okay. So, there's no reason to be being taxes on it. So, you know, that's a simple concept. Your growth stocks might want, you don't mind having in your name. So, if you've got a couple of buckets, right, we want to think, okay, what is your portfolio? What it should look like, and then what bucket should it be in, right. To minimize the tax-drag on it. That makes sense. Right? Okay. So, another concept that's key to tax planning is what's called game and lost harvesting. Okay. And what this basically means is have your eye on your portfolio and its elements at all times. And be very proactive to think about in the same asset class, what other funds or ETFs or other investments you could use as a backup. So you might be in fun day, but you know, and your firm is doing the research that if we needed, we could go to fund B, which we have a lot of. Confidence in and the reason you have you want to do that at all times. People think gain and loss. Harvesting is always in the fourth quarter. You take a look at, Hey, how much did they pay in tax this year? What assets do I have that maybe I could sell for a loss? Because I had a windfall, maybe I sold a building, or I had a really good year at the practice. And that's. But I want to give you a real example. Why Justin shouldn't wait to the fourth quarter. Okay. So, I want people to listen to this. Let's go back to March, 2020 when the market was tanking. Right. When the COVID was still, was it was coming on the scene. Well, we had a particular. Who, you know, had we had done this research in advance of COVID even showing up? We said, we always have an idea. Okay. In particular parts of a client's portfolio, what would we go into if we wanted to exit out of this asset? So, in a part of his portfolio, in the international, they had a fund. It was this artist strategic fund, which was valued at about $540,000. Now. It had underperformed portfolio had been doing well, but this was one piece of the portfolio was really unperformed. There was a loss there and that we hadn't, we thought it would come back. So, we hadn't done anything was unrealized, but we saw the market tanking and we said, this might be the time to just. Sort of bite the bullet cell bat and go into the other fund that we were looking at and harvest that loss. So that's what we did. Okay. This was March 18th, 2020. We sold that and realized the loss of a hundred, 9,000 for the client. Okay. Well, we, the next trading day, we invested that in another fund. It was a fidelity overseas fund that we'd done the research on. Right? So same part of the mix. If we said, okay, we want 5% in this particular. Part of your portfolio in this kind of, you know, international exposure, we just traded one for the other harvest, the loss put in the other one. Well, obviously from March on up the rest of that year was kind of a straight line up. So, at the end of that year, that fund was up 63% from that. In 20 up to 800,000. Now the previous fund would have done well, too. But the difference is because we shifted at that time that in addition to this huge increase up to 800 something thousand from five 40, they had on their tax return, a loss of a hundred, $9,000. So they were in the ideal position, right? They had growth on their, on their position, their portfolio, their wealthier, but from a tax point of view, they had $110,000. If we had never done that, we just left it in the fund and just say, let's just wait it out. They still would've come up and don't have the numbers in front of me. But I think they probably would've performed not that dissimilarly to the fidelity fund. Maybe a little less, maybe a little more, but in that ballpark it's the same, but they wouldn't have had that loss right now. They had about 109 hundred, $9,000 loss that they can apply to other games that year or carry it through. So that's the kind of opportunity that your investment advisor, if you're doing yourself that you need to be doing, and this is one of the things that it's very hard for a surgeon, if they're doing it themselves, they may be able to pick assets, but to be able to be on top of them, do the research and, and have the competence to execute a trade. And I saw your face when I said, oh, they lost 109,000. There was not a good face you gave. So, we had to, as an investment manager say, you know what? We're going to do it, even though we're losing 109,000 on this trade over seven, whatever, it was five, six years because we believe in what's going to happen in our strategy. And it worked right. The client had the upside, they gained in that part of their portfolio, but they also had a loss and I could give a bunch of other examples, but I don't want to get into the details. The point of it, the lesson is. That gain and loss harvesting. There's a year-round thing. It takes research and it takes the confidence to be able to make those moves. When you think that you'll benefit. Catherine Maley, MBA: That feels tricky to me because it's not day trading, but it's definitely a part-time job. Like watching all that. I was always taught, just buy good stock and leave it alone. And I'll drive myself nuts if I watch that. So, I don't, I just, I'm not big on stock market. I just have like, you know, just little things that I like, and I look at them periodically and otherwise I'll, I'll never sleep, you know? David Mandell, JD, MBA: Well, I'm very much like you, I mean, I'm a founder of a wealth management firm. OJM group, I'm the app. So, we, I founded this firm 14 years ago, you know, after practicing law for about 12 years, but I don't really check my balances that often I have my, the portfolio managers I'll do the quarterly call and, you know, I have some ideas and this and that, but I'm not someone who checks it every day. Unlike my brother, who is a cardiologist who does check things quite often. So, it really has nothing to do with what your chosen field is. So, you might, you're going to have surgeons who do that. And are very active and surgeons who are more passive. And you'll just say, listen, I want to find a good firm, trust them, buy into their business model. You know, their fiduciary is et cetera. And that's what we do. You know, we help clients in that, in that way. Catherine Maley, MBA: I know so many surgeons because I've asked them like, where are you? Where do you put your money? Like, what were you investing in nine out of 10 times they say stocks. I don't think they're doing this harvesting though, are, or maybe they are doing this harvesting or are they, that just seems like ah, questionable to me. I personally really like real estate. I like it a lot. I like real estate and investing in cash-flowing properties, you know, so I like syndications and I love the depreciation on, on that, the appreciation that depreciation that I'm much more comfortable with this stock. Not as much though, but what, what do you suggest that these doctors do when they're investing? And I assume you have a different answer for somebody who's just started out versus 15 years in versus ready to exit. David Mandell, JD, MBA: Sure. So, listen, I mean, we've, we have 1500 physicians we've worked with over the years. So, we have docs who are really into real estate, you know, who are kind of the, the, it becomes their hobby or sort of second business. I mean, as you know, real estate takes research, you have to know what you're getting into. I, you know, as a lawyer, the few clients, I've had physicians who filed for bankruptcy over the years. It's all been. You know, it's been them buying like right now when things are just exploding, signing a lot of personal guarantees. And then the market turns and, you know, they have a $5 million property in a $4 million note in the property is now worth two and a half million in the bank. And the bank is not walking away from their $4 million note with a surgeon. So - Catherine Maley, MBA: Why in the world would they put their name on that. David Mandell, JD, MBA: Well, a lot of times they have to, to get the, the good loan. So, the point of all of that is that my advice to a client would be figure out if you're going to try to do this yourself, and you really have the abdomen and the discipline and the time. Okay. Those are three different things as human discipline and time. Because if you don't have all three of those, you'd be much better to outsource it to a. Right. And I do that myself to my firm. It happens to be my firm, but I don't really have an interest in it, whether I was a corporate lawyer or entertainment, or like it wasn't the beginning of my career or for wealth manager. That's I want someone else watching it and doing it all day. It doesn't mean that the firm like a firm like ours or others don't have real estate as part of it. There are private reads. There are public reads is private debt. There are syndications, you know, which are all basically described all of those things. But and there's alternatives, et cetera. So, it doesn't just mean stocks, right? There's lots of different kinds of, of assets from private equity to hedge funds and all that kind of stuff that make up a portfolio. But I think the key question is, are you going to do it yourself? Are you going to find, try to find it advisor that you trust? To help you with that. And then we could do a whole norther podcast on how do you find it advisors or you trust, what are the questions to ask? And I'm happy to come back and talk about that, Catherine Maley, MBA: Right? Because that's a big deal. Like, I mean, we all know the strategy, but it's how do you execute this strategy and who do you execute? Those are the questions that get us tripped up David Mandell, JD, MBA: Happy to come back on another time and talk to that. I talk about that. But hopefully today, at least the people I've gotten some good ideas on taxes. Again, just to summarize qualified retirement plan. That's your business, that's your business quadrant. Okay. You can have significant deductions there. You can have a good percentage and maybe a lot higher than you think of the deductions versus vis-a-vis employees. But. Get caught and paying too high of fees or having a plan have liability a potential in there. Two non-qualified plans. You seem to really like that idea. That's the big business idea that I've been doing myself, putting a lot more in than my non-qualified then might qualify for. Yes, the pain is now a deduction upfront, but there's a lot of joy in the future for you. If you do it. And then three investments, make sure their tax manage their, their managing a tax savvy manner. And that may mean use of a professional for some part of your portfolio, because as you said, it's kind of hard to do it. Catherine Maley, MBA: Yeah, this is really good information. I learned a lot on this one. I liked that. So where can they learn more about you and your strategies? David Mandell, JD, MBA: So, a couple of things, we've got a lot of free content. Okay. So www.OJMGroup.com. Our website is a good place to see our bios, et cetera. Learn all about us. http://OJMBookstore.com. K http://OJMBookstore.com. If you go there, you'll see our books and we've got three we've written 15 over the years. We've got three that are out there now once a CME piece. So, if you need CME, get that Risk management for the practicing physician. It doesn't talk about anything we discussed today. Our flagship book is Wealth planning for the modern physician. Okay. That was the one you mentioned in the bio. That's got sections on taxes on asset protection, on investing, et cetera. So that's a good overview, great material there. It's got sections on my defined benefit plan, things I talked about today, and then the other book, wealth management made simple. That is really all about investing. So, it gets into the questions you should ask and business models that are out there in the financial. What does it mean to be a financial advisor? It means nothing. If I know what a board-certified plastic surgeon is, I know what it means. You know, I know what they have to do to do that. I know what a dermatologist has to train to do that. I don't know what a financial advisor means and that's on purpose. So, we kind of peel back the curtain and say, these are the different business models there. Right. We talk about tax savvy investing. So those are the two books. And normally you'll see all the pricing on that, but as a listener to the podcast, Write this down, and I know there'll be in the show notes, et cetera, but BEAUTY22 BEAUTY22, like the year if you put that code in at checkout, you will get the books for free, whether it's a hard copy. If you're old school, Kindle, iPad PDF, whatever works best for you. So http://ojmbookstore.com BEAUTY22. Catherine Maley, MBA: That is fantastic. Thank you so much, David. I really appreciate your time. This was really insightful and I hope. Yeah, I appreciated that. Please check out his website. I think he's got some really good stuff. And I love that it's for physicians, you know, they understand that apparently you came from a big family of physicians, but now - David Mandell, JD, MBA: I'm a black sheep. I'm the only one I got a science was not my thing. So - Catherine Maley, MBA: Somebody had to be the lawyer. So, I guess. Thank you so much, everybody. If you appreciated this, please give me a review over at Beauty and the Biz at Apple Podcasts (https://apple.co/3tsQuta). I would certainly appreciate that. And then if you've got any questions for me or for David, you can certainly leave them at my website at www.CatherineMaley.com. I'd appreciate you sharing this out with, to your staff, with your colleagues. And then if you want to catch me on Instagram, you can always DM me @CatherineMaleyMBA. Thanks so much. 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