Show notes
What a remarkable story. Twenty years ago, our guest took a walk with her wife when her left leg suddenly stopped working correctly. The leg inexplicably lost most of its strength, causing Dr. Terry to hobble home confused. The next day, our guest was in a neurologist's office and heard these life-changing words: "Terry, this could be bad. Or, really, really bad." Over the next two weeks, Dr. Terry went through a battery of tests. During those two long weeks, she kept thinking about what her neurologist said - and prayed for a fatal diagnosis to avoid a life of disability. Finally, the diagnosis came in: multiple sclerosis. Within three years, Dr. Terry found herself in a tilt-recline wheelchair, unable to sit up at her desk. This rapid deterioration occurred despite seeing the best specialists and taking the newest, cutting-edge medications. Whether listening or watching on YoutTube, Dr. Terry's story on what happens next is jaw-dropping. Listen to get inspired. If you know someone with MS, please share this interview with them. Because everything Dr. Terry shares is science-based. Fortunately for her (and ultimately for all of us), being a doctor with MS was a blessing in disguise. This enabled her to begin using the research skills she developed in her medical career to explore multiple sclerosis and search for possibilities. During her journey, Dr. Terry became a functional doctor through the Functional Medicine Certified Practitioner program. She is also a longtime clinical professor of medicine at the University of Iowa, conducting clinical trials. In 2018, Dr. Terry won the Institute for Functional Medicine's Linus Pauling Award for her research, clinical care, and patient care. She is also the author of The Wahls Protocol: A Radical Way to Treat All Chronic Autoimmune Conditions Using Paleo Principles, and The Wahls Protocol: Cooking for Life. How did Dr. Terry go from being in a wheelchair to riding her bike to work each day? How did she overcome MS and restore her health? Tune in and find out! In this podcast, we cover: Dr. Terry's emotional story What is multiple sclerosis? That moment her entire family cried tears of joy Dr. Terry's profound "A-ha" moment The dietary changes involved in her breakthrough How meditation played a role in Dr. Terry's recovery Dr. Terry's exciting clinical trials The emotional struggles of losing your ability to run, ride a bike, or hike How Terry's partner dealt with her MS How to bring more innovation to the medical industry A Funny Moment that Shocked Her Doctors For a long time during her illness with MS, Dr. Terry saw her neurologist every six months. As her condition turned around and she found herself in a much better place, Dr. Terry called her neurologist's office. "There's been a big change! I should really see a physician." Wanting to see her that day, Dr. Terry said, no, I want to come on Friday. Despite their protests, she waited till Friday. "So I walk in, and I'm not in my tilt recline wheelchair. I'm in the waiting area, and the nurse comes out. She's got a chart, and she's looking around, and I realized she is looking for me." "So I stand up and go, 'Hey, Cindy! Over here!' She is like, 'Oh my God, you're walking!" My physician is thrilled, and he says the same thing, 'Oh my God! You're walking!'" Those Who Disrupt the Status Quo Face Ridicule and Criticism Over the time since she defied her prognosis and went on to clinically test her theories and positively change the lives of others suffering from MS, plenty of tomatoes get hurled at Dr. Terry. Here is a snippet of what Dr. Terry said about her critics: "Anyone who is truly innovative is going to draw ire because it's very uncomfortable to have to abandon constructs of how you understand the world." "I don't want to do that. You don't want to do that. None of us do. So I don't think it's possible to have innovation without facing ridicule and rejection at first." "And then your new ideas either pan out or are suppressed. So you keep doing the experiments." One of the most profound episodes of the Awesome Health Podcast, Dr. Terry's personal story from an MS diagnosis back to feeling good again, is truly astonishing. But what makes this even more startling is the fact that this happened to a medical doctor, a clinical professor, who has gone on to show the medical community a whole new way of looking at MS. Many people get results through Dr. Terry's breakthrough work and will continue to do so as she continues her research at the University of Iowa. Check out this episode - discover a groundbreaking approach to multiple sclerosis. Episode Resources: Check out more about Terry Wahls, MD FREE GIFT: Pick up a one-page handout for the Wahl's Diet Clinical Trial in Sage Journals Terry Wahls M.D. on YouTube Dr. Terry Wahls on Instagram Terry Wahls MD on Facebook Dr. Terry Wahls on Twitter Read The Episode Transcript: 1 00:01:24.930 -- 00:01:25.140 Oh. 2 00:03:43.620 -- 00:03:44.700 Wade Lightheart: hi Terry how are you doing. 3 00:03:45.150 -- 00:03:46.320 Terry Wahls: Excellent how are you. 4 00:03:46.860 -- 00:03:52.530 Wade Lightheart: Excellent i'm so excited to have you here today it's so great, for you, James Where are you calling in from. 5 00:03:53.370 -- 00:03:55.170 Terry Wahls: A client from iowa city iowa. 6 00:03:55.560 -- 00:03:59.040 Wade Lightheart: Okay okay so great, where the papers have been published. 7 00:04:01.260 -- 00:04:17.310 Wade Lightheart: But I had the pleasure of reviewing beforehand before we get started, I just want to go through a couple of quick things is there any particular areas that you'd like to talk about today, or is important to kind of cue you up to mention. 8 00:04:18.210 -- 00:04:20.730 Terry Wahls: US remind me who your audiences. 9 00:04:21.030 -- 00:04:24.900 Wade Lightheart: So our audience is people who are looking at. 10 00:04:26.190 -- 00:04:35.640 Wade Lightheart: We call biological optimization they're leveraging technology and nutritional supplementation exercise fitness all that sort of stuff to address. 11 00:04:36.150 -- 00:04:42.720 Wade Lightheart: How do they improve their health, how do they you know live a healthier life, a better life that sort of stuff and we bring different people from. 12 00:04:43.350 -- 00:04:50.820 Wade Lightheart: Every possible background to address the importance of diet, nutrition and how they can improve the quality of their life or their family members. 13 00:04:51.420 -- 00:05:15.510 Terry Wahls: Okay, so our recent research will be launching another study here shortly we're very close to having that approved in, then I have a seminar next year and so it's a four part series and get the whole seminar or they could just get the last one, which is all about healthy aging. 14 00:05:16.530 -- 00:05:17.280 Wade Lightheart: Oh wow. 15 00:05:20.910 -- 00:05:21.360 Wade Lightheart: and 16 00:05:23.820 -- 00:05:28.530 Wade Lightheart: will probably going to your story, because I think it's super inspirational and. 17 00:05:28.890 -- 00:05:32.460 Terry Wahls: Oh yeah I should tell my story people yeah so how much time do we have. 18 00:05:32.730 -- 00:05:39.510 Wade Lightheart: Well, the year actually the defining component on it so that was my next question is, do you have any hard stops there, and like. 19 00:05:39.900 -- 00:05:46.170 Terry Wahls: I probably do so let me look at my calendar now because my team keeps this going. 20 00:05:47.430 -- 00:05:52.680 Terry Wahls: So it looks like 1230 is absolutely hard stop. 21 00:05:53.430 -- 00:06:00.030 Wade Lightheart: Okay, great well let's get you guys are two hours difference in iowa then over here on the west coast right. 22 00:06:01.350 -- 00:06:03.570 Terry Wahls: yeah, it is now 11. 23 00:06:04.290 -- 00:06:05.220 Terry Wahls: Before four. 24 00:06:05.640 -- 00:06:16.440 Wade Lightheart: Perfect alright, so I will do my little razzle dazzle introduction and then we'll get into we'll get into this as soon as you're ready to go. 25 00:06:17.310 -- 00:06:17.850 Wade Lightheart: Okay. 26 00:06:18.300 -- 00:06:19.980 Terry Wahls: I get settled, we are good. 27 00:06:20.700 -- 00:06:21.210 Okay. 28 00:06:22.530 -- 00:06:33.900 Wade Lightheart: Okay, for our recording team, we will start the podcast here in 321. 29 00:06:34.710 -- 00:06:51.810 Wade Lightheart: Good morning, good afternoon and good evening it's way too light heart from by optimizer with another edition of the awesome health podcast and today we have Dr Terry walls joining us, and this is a really exciting and important. 30 00:06:53.400 -- 00:07:09.000 Wade Lightheart: audio recording video recording if you're watching it on YouTube because Dr Terry walls has a very unique story, first of all, she is in the Institute of functional medicine certified practitioner in a clinical professor of medicine at the University of iowa. 31 00:07:09.270 -- 00:07:22.560 Wade Lightheart: where she conducts clinical trials in 2018 she was awarded the Institute for functional medicines Linus Pauling Award for her contributions and research clinical care and patient advocacy. 32 00:07:23.040 -- 00:07:29.160 Wade Lightheart: she's also a patient with the secondary progressive multiple sclerosis sclerosis sclerosis sorry. 33 00:07:29.760 -- 00:07:38.250 Wade Lightheart: I have a hard time saying that sometimes we're going to say that again she is also a patient with secondary progressive multiple cirrhosis. 34 00:07:38.640 -- 00:07:47.310 Wade Lightheart: Which couldn't find her to a tilt recline wheelchair for four years walls restored her health. 35 00:07:47.730 -- 00:07:56.790 Wade Lightheart: Using a diet and lifestyle program she designed specifically for her brain and now pedals her bike to work every. 36 00:07:57.210 -- 00:08:09.870 Wade Lightheart: Each day she's the author of the walls protocol a radical new way to treat all chronic autoimmune conditions, using Paleo principles and the cookbook the walls protocol cooking for life. 37 00:08:10.350 -- 00:08:25.050 Wade Lightheart: learn more about her Ms clinical trials at http PS, you know that colon slash slash walls w H l s dot lab diet you I O w a.edu. 38 00:08:25.560 -- 00:08:40.680 Wade Lightheart: Forward slash.we will have the links to this, I just had a chance there, Dr Terry to look at that trial and it's extraordinary you have an extraordinary story, I mean you know I had. 39 00:08:41.610 -- 00:08:56.520 Wade Lightheart: Some a relative that suffered from multiple sclerosis, and it is a very progressive in kind of depressing condition of it's in so many people suffer suffer from it. 40 00:08:56.970 -- 00:09:06.450 Wade Lightheart: I was actually Member when I was in elementary school, we did fundraising for multiple sclerosis research, and I remember I. 41 00:09:06.780 -- 00:09:15.780 Wade Lightheart: raised a bunch of funds and I got this little green little puppy dog as a prize for my for my work is again, I was very proud of that, because that was the first time I was. 42 00:09:16.170 -- 00:09:31.590 Wade Lightheart: introduced to the importance of research around degenerative conditions, and you have kind of spearheaded not only your own recovery, but also some extraordinary research in this area, can you talk about your journey that led you to this. 43 00:09:31.830 -- 00:09:32.220 sure. 44 00:09:33.360 -- 00:09:47.520 Terry Wahls: So when I was 20 years ago i'm out walking with my wife and my left leg gross week on dry unit a humble home next day, I see the neurologist who says, you know Terry this could be bad or really, really bad. 45 00:09:48.240 -- 00:10:01.080 Terry Wahls: So the next two weeks, while i'm thinking going through the workup I think about bad in really, really bad I, and I don't want to be disabled so actually i'm praying for a fatal diagnosis. 46 00:10:02.100 -- 00:10:09.630 Terry Wahls: Two weeks later, I hear multiple sclerosis, I see the best people take the no drugs three years later I hear totally fine wheelchair. 47 00:10:10.530 -- 00:10:26.400 Terry Wahls: I take my de Santo infusions than ties IV infusions nothing helps I am too weak to set up at my desk my zingers do the trigeminal neuralgia electoral jolts of pain, are more frequent more severe more difficult to turn off. 48 00:10:27.870 -- 00:10:33.090 Terry Wahls: Fortunately i'm a physician, so I go to the basic science, I began reading. 49 00:10:34.140 -- 00:10:47.910 Terry Wahls: And experiment, the based on what i'm reading I developed theory that mitochondria are a big driver, particularly in the more progressive decline and so At first I work on supplements. 50 00:10:49.200 -- 00:11:01.350 Terry Wahls: speed of my declined slows, then I discovered study using electrical stimulation muscles I convinced my physical therapist so let me try that my test session hurts like hell, but when it's over I feel great. 51 00:11:02.520 -- 00:11:15.450 Terry Wahls: I, and so my therapist lets me add East him to my workouts I discovered the Institute for functional medicine, I take their course on neuro protection, I have more supplements that i'm taking. 52 00:11:16.770 -- 00:11:31.170 Terry Wahls: In, then I have a really big Aha and sort of in retrospect wait i'm like dear God how That takes me so long to think about this i'm like what if I redesign my Paleo diet that i'd been following for last five years. 53 00:11:32.520 -- 00:11:40.350 Terry Wahls: Based on all the science i've been reading the nutrients that i've said, are important if taking supplements, what if I figure out where they are in the food supply. 54 00:11:41.370 -- 00:11:43.020 Terry Wahls: So redesign my Paleo diet. 55 00:11:45.120 -- 00:12:01.440 Terry Wahls: And it's stunning three months later, my zingers of 27 years are gone my fatigue is gone and my physical therapist says Terry you're getting stronger it begins advancing exercise. 56 00:12:03.090 -- 00:12:03.600 Terry Wahls: and 57 00:12:04.620 -- 00:12:07.680 Terry Wahls: Three months after that I am walking without a cane. 58 00:12:09.000 -- 00:12:10.560 Terry Wahls: Three months after that. 59 00:12:15.240 -- 00:12:15.570 Terry Wahls: I. 60 00:12:17.190 -- 00:12:18.150 Terry Wahls: got on my bike. 61 00:12:19.290 -- 00:12:25.860 Terry Wahls: For the first time in six years with my son zach jogging alongside in the left my daughter's tab on the right. 62 00:12:27.240 -- 00:12:29.310 Terry Wahls: And my wife behind. 63 00:12:30.900 -- 00:12:43.140 Terry Wahls: I biked around the block for the first time, you know everyone's crying my kids are crying my wife's crying i'm crying if you could see my face you'd see that i'm crying because that. 64 00:12:45.090 -- 00:12:56.460 Terry Wahls: That was the moment where I understood that the current understanding of multiple sclerosis was incomplete and who knew how much recovery might be possible. 65 00:12:57.660 -- 00:12:58.140 Terry Wahls: and 66 00:12:59.760 -- 00:13:02.070 Terry Wahls: You know it's about five months after that. 67 00:13:03.780 -- 00:13:13.170 Terry Wahls: Then I completed an 18.5 mile bike ride with my family and once again roll cry you know my kids are crying my wife's crying i'm crying. 68 00:13:13.980 -- 00:13:30.840 Terry Wahls: If this really transforms how I think about disease and health, it will transform the way I practice medicine and it transforms the focus of my research, I and we've done five clinical trials. 69 00:13:32.010 -- 00:13:46.560 Terry Wahls: We hopefully we'll be talking about most recent one we've got a couple more trials that will be getting launched here momentarily I and i've gone from being this. 70 00:13:48.570 -- 00:13:56.070 Terry Wahls: sort of unusual eccentric person that was roundly condemned by many in the Ms community. 71 00:13:57.540 -- 00:14:02.400 Terry Wahls: To be now are respected dietary intervention research. 72 00:14:03.930 -- 00:14:18.720 Terry Wahls: In the Ms community and really changing the whole discussion that diet and lifestyle are in should be an essential part of the care plan for me every Ms patient. 73 00:14:20.190 -- 00:14:28.500 Wade Lightheart: is profound first off your story is incredible and I can see why that would be activating so emotional because you know. 74 00:14:29.040 -- 00:14:39.990 Wade Lightheart: there's two two parts to it, one you're not just someone with a diagnosis you're someone with a medical background, so you understand the progressive degeneration, and what that's going to look like over a period of time. 75 00:14:40.590 -- 00:15:02.070 Wade Lightheart: Based on prior research, you were of all the medications the interactions the contraindications all that sort of stuff and then you go off and kind of do some your own experiments and start reversing what is generally believed to be a and reversible condition is that not. 76 00:15:02.220 -- 00:15:04.140 Terry Wahls: Correct no absolutely and. 77 00:15:04.650 -- 00:15:13.380 Terry Wahls: I want to be clear at the time that I was doing all of this, all of my physicians my primary care doc's all of the various neurologists i've seen. 78 00:15:13.770 -- 00:15:26.490 Terry Wahls: were very clear MS is a progressive disease, the whole point three says Wayne and I was thrilled to take these incredibly toxic compounds that I knew had at a rate of causing. 79 00:15:27.990 -- 00:15:36.150 Terry Wahls: leukemia to percentage time you took it because I was, and I was already seriously disabled I didn't want to become even more disabled so. 80 00:15:36.600 -- 00:15:51.450 Terry Wahls: I was happy to take very toxic drugs that may be very l in an effort to slow my decline, because this was all about slowing the decline it as I improve, so my my face pain is gone first time in 27 years. 81 00:15:52.140 -- 00:16:00.090 Terry Wahls: My fatigue is gone first time in seven years i'm walking again around the hospital and then around the block. 82 00:16:02.220 -- 00:16:09.930 Terry Wahls: But you know I don't know what it means, and in part of what you you do when you have a progressive neurological disorder. 83 00:16:11.490 -- 00:16:24.090 Terry Wahls: Is you learn to let go of the future right and take each day as an adult and that's a very healthy coping strategies so here I am. 84 00:16:25.140 -- 00:16:36.750 Terry Wahls: i've let go the future I don't know what it means i'm clearly at a different place than I was a month ago, or ios six months earlier but I don't know what it means I don't know. 85 00:16:38.070 -- 00:16:39.330 Terry Wahls: You know I didn't know what it means. 86 00:16:41.370 -- 00:16:42.780 Terry Wahls: until the day I rode my bike. 87 00:16:43.620 -- 00:16:44.310 Wade Lightheart: mm hmm. 88 00:16:44.940 -- 00:16:54.510 Terry Wahls: And that's when I understood in my heart and my bones, that the current understanding of Ms was wrong and that. 89 00:16:57.000 -- 00:17:03.240 Terry Wahls: I was recovering and who knew how much recovery might be possible. 90 00:17:04.770 -- 00:17:18.150 Terry Wahls: You know i'll to note sort of funny story I in this happened, the month previous pay and seen my neurologist you know access home every six months. 91 00:17:18.630 -- 00:17:33.000 Terry Wahls: And I called the office to say you know there's been a big change I should really see a physician, so they were happy to see me that day as well, oh no, I want to come on Friday so know if there's a big change, we should not wait till Friday Friday i'll be fine. 92 00:17:34.680 -- 00:17:40.740 Terry Wahls: So you know I go in I i've walked in so i'm not in my total Klein wheelchair i've seen in the office. 93 00:17:41.340 -- 00:17:54.240 Terry Wahls: In the waiting area and my the nurse comes out and she's got a chart she's looking around and I realized oh I bet she's looking for me and i'm not in the wheelchair, so I stand up go hey. 94 00:17:55.620 -- 00:17:57.750 Terry Wahls: Cindy over here, and she goes. 95 00:18:01.320 -- 00:18:04.140 Terry Wahls: And I was like oh my God you're walking. 96 00:18:05.730 -- 00:18:09.990 Terry Wahls: And so yeah I see my position is like oh my God you're walking. 97 00:18:11.130 -- 00:18:22.680 Terry Wahls: he's thrilled you're showing what I might East him, you know what i'm doing he still the startup got to get your MRI and see what's going on and. 98 00:18:23.760 -- 00:18:28.830 Terry Wahls: we're both quite surprised there's no change on the MRI and it comes back and says, you know. 99 00:18:30.000 -- 00:18:35.880 Terry Wahls: Of course there's no changing them right, these are old lesions they haven't been active in a long time to still that active. 100 00:18:37.080 -- 00:18:42.360 Terry Wahls: But what you clearly have done is you have rewired your brain. 101 00:18:43.380 -- 00:18:55.950 Terry Wahls: You are we miley and the MRI can't capture that but your body clearly has rewired in re function your brain and your spinal cord. 102 00:18:56.700 -- 00:19:12.300 Wade Lightheart: Can you explain to our listeners just what multiple sclerosis is so that they understand what it what it what it is what and then this breakthrough that you've. 103 00:19:12.300 -- 00:19:14.400 Wade Lightheart: Experienced why that's so profound. 104 00:19:14.850 -- 00:19:31.740 Terry Wahls: So it's a autoimmune process where your immune cells are attacking your spinal cord in your brain first we said it was just the installation the mile and part now realized in fact that they're killing all sorts of parts of your brain astrocytes have been damaged. 105 00:19:33.000 -- 00:19:43.290 Terry Wahls: glial cells are being damaged neurons are being damaged axon to being damaged there are these acute inflammation episodes so as a call to relapses that gradually improve. 106 00:19:43.980 -- 00:20:05.520 Terry Wahls: In addition, in the background, this is slow, steady deterioration brain bind spinal cord shrinkage that is lit that is associated with that cognitive decline we're seeing disability that from which people do not recover so and I clearly have a lot of fatigue. 107 00:20:06.600 -- 00:20:18.180 Terry Wahls: Had was being to have some cognitive decline in you know, had had severe severe disability, I could not sit up in a regular chair like I am right now, at that point. 108 00:20:20.310 -- 00:20:21.300 Terry Wahls: And so. 109 00:20:23.310 -- 00:20:28.650 Terry Wahls: What what my neurologist said very clearly is I had rewired. 110 00:20:32.580 -- 00:20:39.810 Terry Wahls: My brain and my spinal cord we didn't really have the technology that could have measured mile and production. 111 00:20:41.490 -- 00:20:55.530 Terry Wahls: And so unfair, unfortunately, we had not sent me over to the neuro ophthalmologist to get something called flicker fusion if we had the product if they had done that previously and now. 112 00:20:56.040 -- 00:21:07.110 Terry Wahls: They probably would be able to measure the remote island nation there, and my optic nerves, but you know we didn't have it, because there's no reason to think you know it's going to be any modulation occurring. 113 00:21:07.560 -- 00:21:24.300 Wade Lightheart: Right and that's an important distinction, I think, for people to recognize is now that you've you've demonstrated that it's possible well, we can start designing divine developing and designing trials about how to measure this to see which might well. 114 00:21:24.870 -- 00:21:30.870 Terry Wahls: Right and that the end that's what we're doing so, the next trial that we're doing. 115 00:21:32.160 -- 00:21:36.840 Terry Wahls: Well, maybe talk about the trial that we just published and then we'll talk about the next one. 116 00:21:36.870 -- 00:21:40.290 Wade Lightheart: yeah let's let's do that let's we're getting ahead of ourselves here because it's so. 117 00:21:40.290 -- 00:21:51.690 Wade Lightheart: exciting I just read through this trial now basically if you want to kind of outline what you've been able to put forth here in this in this discovery or. 118 00:21:52.230 -- 00:21:55.080 Terry Wahls: The sequence of doing research ghost. 119 00:21:55.440 -- 00:22:07.980 Terry Wahls: Typically, like this, an interesting case study, then an interesting case series about a intervention that may be changes it leads to an unexpected outcome. 120 00:22:08.670 -- 00:22:17.730 Terry Wahls: We then did what's called a single arm safety and feasibility study so and that was my chair medicine that got me to do this. 121 00:22:18.420 -- 00:22:29.430 Terry Wahls: We wrote up a protocol that outlined what I did for myself and then we enrolled 20 folks with secondary and primary progressive Ms. 122 00:22:29.790 -- 00:22:40.350 Terry Wahls: Sure, expect any of them to get any better, and the fact of all you can do is hold them flat, as a group that would be an amazing home run and anybody improve that would be studying. 123 00:22:41.850 -- 00:22:54.570 Terry Wahls: So we enrolled them we showed that people could implement it if the big the big side effect weight was if you're overweight or obese you lost weight get back to a healthy weight. 124 00:22:56.280 -- 00:23:10.260 Terry Wahls: And I had to file reports every three months about the weight loss that was occurring fatigue reduced quality of life, improved in half of our folks motor function walking function improved. 125 00:23:11.280 -- 00:23:17.730 Terry Wahls: So 50% of the people start to see improvements in motor function function that that's really quite remarkable. 126 00:23:18.210 -- 00:23:23.610 Terry Wahls: cognition improved depression declined anxiety declined. 127 00:23:24.090 -- 00:23:30.870 Wade Lightheart: Now, where was in that trial, where you just measuring dietary changes or Where are you adding the. 128 00:23:30.870 -- 00:23:31.800 Terry Wahls: stimulation well. 129 00:23:31.920 -- 00:23:32.490 Terry Wahls: You know. 130 00:23:33.330 -- 00:23:47.400 Terry Wahls: We, the program was to do could they do everything that I did so there was diet, there was meditation those exercise electro stimulation and supplements very complicated. 131 00:23:48.480 -- 00:23:50.760 Terry Wahls: In severely criticized I might get. 132 00:23:51.750 -- 00:23:53.070 Terry Wahls: Really criticize because. 133 00:23:53.460 -- 00:23:56.850 Terry Wahls: Well, if it works, who knows what the mechanism is and i'm like. 134 00:23:57.330 -- 00:24:06.360 Terry Wahls: Who cares cares first, you have to show, can they do it, and do you heard them and does it work, then you could do follow up studies to figure out the mechanisms. 135 00:24:06.840 -- 00:24:25.800 Terry Wahls: Yes, so so get that first study, then we got some again it was a small small study funded by my friends and Canada, the next study again small pilot study now randomized and simplified so it's just a diet. 136 00:24:26.970 -- 00:24:34.320 Terry Wahls: And we did relapsing remitting folks we looked at fatigue, quality of life and motor function so again people could do it. 137 00:24:35.460 -- 00:24:43.110 Terry Wahls: Safe and less fatigue higher quality of life better motor function. 138 00:24:44.490 -- 00:24:46.440 Terry Wahls: Then we did a comparison of. 139 00:24:47.910 -- 00:24:55.800 Terry Wahls: The Paleo diet, the ketogenic diet to usual diet and again showing that people could do it, it was safe well tolerated. 140 00:24:57.540 -- 00:25:01.320 Terry Wahls: The next study, which is a study that you read. 141 00:25:02.490 -- 00:25:10.620 Terry Wahls: Looked at the low saturated fat diet, which is a swank diet and that was the only other diet that was out there for. 142 00:25:11.970 -- 00:25:14.730 Terry Wahls: people with MS and the modified Paleo diet. 143 00:25:16.320 -- 00:25:32.790 Terry Wahls: We had a 12 week observation phase where we looked at people's all of the measures over that baseline period that run in period to see if they were stable or not, and they were then we randomize them. 144 00:25:34.080 -- 00:25:38.280 Terry Wahls: To either the low saturated fat diet, or the modified Paleo diet. 145 00:25:39.480 -- 00:25:48.840 Terry Wahls: They came back at 12 weeks repeated all the measures and came back again in 12 weeks repeated all the measures, so we had 12 and 24 weeks worth of intervention. 146 00:25:50.640 -- 00:25:55.500 Terry Wahls: were able to show is both sides were associated with a significant reduction fatigue. 147 00:25:56.880 -- 00:25:59.040 Terry Wahls: And improvement in quality of life. 148 00:26:00.270 -- 00:26:15.660 Terry Wahls: was being and they're really pretty cool in at 12 weeks at 24 weeks walls had greater poverty reduction in some measures and higher quality of life than swank and some measures. 149 00:26:17.010 -- 00:26:18.090 Wade Lightheart: Now that's physical abuse. 150 00:26:18.120 -- 00:26:20.520 Wade Lightheart: that's the reduced fat the saturated. 151 00:26:20.550 -- 00:26:20.910 Right. 152 00:26:22.170 -- 00:26:26.610 Wade Lightheart: And why is it, why is that do you understand why that mechanism is. 153 00:26:26.790 -- 00:26:35.010 Terry Wahls: Well, so let's first think about what the two diets have that similar and what is different. 154 00:26:35.070 -- 00:26:36.330 Wade Lightheart: Uniform I love that pro. 155 00:26:36.390 -- 00:26:40.650 Terry Wahls: Okay, so what's similar we had. 156 00:26:41.790 -- 00:26:55.830 Terry Wahls: Increased fruits and vegetables in both walls had more fruits and vegetables and swag, but we also increase fruits and vegetables, compared to baseline in there was less sugar less hydrogenated fats. 157 00:26:57.120 -- 00:27:01.350 Terry Wahls: So less of those are harmful fats in both that. 158 00:27:02.580 -- 00:27:14.520 Terry Wahls: Now what is different yeah actually you're both walls and sway had a so the swank group had on average about 10 grams of saturated fat. 159 00:27:15.810 -- 00:27:26.130 Terry Wahls: The walls had on average 16 grams of saturated fat so both diets are relatively low in saturated fat swank being a little more so than the walls. 160 00:27:27.570 -- 00:27:47.790 Terry Wahls: The walls group had more fiber had more fermented foods, I had little more structure the vegetables more green green leafy vegetables more sulfur rich vegetables more deeply colored vegetables and probably a greater variety of fruits and vegetables and a greater variety of meats. 161 00:27:49.980 -- 00:27:59.010 Terry Wahls: What are the market as well, we were working on a grant that will get submitted tomorrow that's going to look at. 162 00:28:00.120 -- 00:28:15.090 Terry Wahls: Changes in the microbiome well between the running face, that is, the observation face in the diet intervention face, so we can see how that changes both the swank died in the walls night we'll get some biomarkers. 163 00:28:16.110 -- 00:28:22.980 Terry Wahls: In terms of the essential fatty acid metabolism and neural filaments a marker of. 164 00:28:24.990 -- 00:28:36.780 Terry Wahls: of brain cell damage in osteopontin a marker of metabolism and of inflammation and actually also. 165 00:28:37.980 -- 00:28:39.300 Terry Wahls: bone metabolism as well. 166 00:28:41.310 -- 00:28:52.650 Terry Wahls: And will correlate changes with dietary changes and changes with clinical outcomes as well, so we'll begin to tease out. 167 00:28:54.000 -- 00:29:05.220 Terry Wahls: what's the mechanism of diet that yo it diet is is a huge driver in changes in the microbiome so so my interpretation is. 168 00:29:07.650 -- 00:29:11.880 Terry Wahls: We ever genetic vulnerability, we have our existing microbiome. 169 00:29:13.380 -- 00:29:19.920 Terry Wahls: In the two of them interact to create more inflammation at the higher risk of autoimmunity and accelerated aging. 170 00:29:21.480 -- 00:29:28.530 Terry Wahls: You change your diet you fertilize and starve out different populations of the microbiome. 171 00:29:29.700 -- 00:29:42.480 Terry Wahls: And so, should I or I path deciding we starve out disease, promoting microbes fertilize health marine microbes who then as they eat up the food that we eat create. 172 00:29:43.800 -- 00:29:51.300 Terry Wahls: The these anti inflammation compounds that get into our bloodstream and have a favorable impact on our physiology. 173 00:29:52.350 -- 00:30:02.970 Wade Lightheart: You know it's interesting that you've discovered that because we've been in digestive health research, we have a partnership with birch University in Croatia and we develop. 174 00:30:03.900 -- 00:30:11.970 Wade Lightheart: A variety of probiotic agents in order to elicit the same effects, and we do all kinds of interesting tests we add vitamins to them, we give them. 175 00:30:12.270 -- 00:30:23.370 Wade Lightheart: Different types of food we blast them with EMF waves, sometimes we do we'd all kinds of things to do this research to see and we've come to the same conclusion that if you can. 176 00:30:23.940 -- 00:30:30.210 Wade Lightheart: feed the good guys and starve the bad guys we see positive progressive changes. 177 00:30:30.720 -- 00:30:38.460 Wade Lightheart: That enhance well being enhanced health or like vitality immune system response these type of things and it's really exciting. 178 00:30:38.880 -- 00:30:44.610 Wade Lightheart: That you've done this in a disease state because we're obviously we're in health promotion. 179 00:30:45.540 -- 00:30:54.000 Wade Lightheart: we've got a recent book called from sick to superhuman and our goal is to promote the individuals, the therapies, the research. 180 00:30:54.540 -- 00:31:06.210 Wade Lightheart: That it takes people who might have a diagnosis that says here's what it's going to be it's the end of the line for you it's going to be progressive degenerative you're going to take these toxic chemicals and drugs and whatever and then. 181 00:31:06.600 -- 00:31:25.140 Wade Lightheart: you're going to kind of waste away to say hey no, you know what there are other options that you can take and experienced a higher quality of life, at best, or worst and maybe even recover from your condition or or delay it's it's a you know its destructive nature. 182 00:31:25.620 -- 00:31:31.020 Terry Wahls: You know it my clinical practice in our clinical research week we talked a lot about. 183 00:31:32.220 -- 00:31:51.300 Terry Wahls: Maintaining your locus of control reflect on are you doing all that you can to have the best life today and in the future, and so I just think that is so important to remind people that you always have choices. 184 00:31:52.740 -- 00:31:59.700 Terry Wahls: That you know what i'm eating is a big choice, yet, so I can eat. 185 00:32:00.720 -- 00:32:06.660 Terry Wahls: food that is delicious and health, promoting work eat food that is delicious and disease, promoting. 186 00:32:10.860 -- 00:32:11.880 Wade Lightheart: it's very simple. 187 00:32:13.500 -- 00:32:25.080 Wade Lightheart: I want to talk about something that I think is really important, before we get into some more topics and you mentioned meditation and you, you mentioned. 188 00:32:25.920 -- 00:32:30.690 Wade Lightheart: kind of letting go of the future, in other words just dealing with things as they come up, which is. 189 00:32:31.110 -- 00:32:45.720 Wade Lightheart: kind of mindful Buddhist almost practice of being in the moment and seeing the moment unfold into that and not getting ahead of yourself or behind yourself What role do you think that played in maybe. 190 00:32:46.950 -- 00:33:03.300 Wade Lightheart: How you approach this discoveries that you made management of kind of you know, negative thinking or you know that sort of like how important was that do you think to your recovery or your your your discoveries. 191 00:33:03.630 -- 00:33:09.570 Terry Wahls: You know what else diagnosed my children are quite small five and eight. 192 00:33:10.680 -- 00:33:30.360 Terry Wahls: And at the time that I was diagnosed, I was still athletic still skiing biking and hiking with them, but very quickly, I cannot do that you know, I was having to reimagine parenting and as having to reimagine my life, each year, as more functions were being taken away. 193 00:33:31.410 -- 00:33:31.980 Terry Wahls: I. 194 00:33:32.040 -- 00:33:34.320 Wade Lightheart: Is what was that, like just. 195 00:33:34.470 -- 00:33:36.570 Wade Lightheart: From an emotional and psychological level. 196 00:33:37.980 -- 00:33:38.310 Terry Wahls: well. 197 00:33:40.470 -- 00:33:43.410 Terry Wahls: It was certainly incredibly challenging. 198 00:33:44.550 -- 00:33:45.030 Terry Wahls: i've. 199 00:33:46.110 -- 00:34:07.860 Terry Wahls: All my life I struggled with depression and, as a young person I had made the astute observation that for me if I was athletic my mood was much, much better I and so that drove me to get into biking hiking running. 200 00:34:08.940 -- 00:34:16.350 Terry Wahls: martial arts and then, as I was losing that it's like you know that was very, very tough. 201 00:34:17.610 -- 00:34:19.590 Terry Wahls: And thinking about. 202 00:34:23.040 -- 00:34:30.120 Terry Wahls: Is sort of very depressed out looking at okay how bad could this be was I going to be filtered Bob. 203 00:34:31.140 -- 00:34:35.190 Terry Wahls: Was I going to have cognitive issues and then. 204 00:34:36.480 -- 00:34:40.140 Terry Wahls: yeah you know within three years, you know, should I was wheelchair bound. 205 00:34:42.270 -- 00:34:46.170 Terry Wahls: In the average it's 15 years, so I was. 206 00:34:48.840 -- 00:34:51.090 Terry Wahls: extremely difficult. 207 00:34:52.830 -- 00:34:55.440 Terry Wahls: But I also fortunately. 208 00:34:56.550 -- 00:34:57.690 Terry Wahls: was impressed by. 209 00:34:58.740 -- 00:35:00.300 Terry Wahls: Victor frankel's book that. 210 00:35:01.380 -- 00:35:10.110 Terry Wahls: Between every event in your life and your response to it there's a space in that space, you can make a choice and it's the choice that defines your character. 211 00:35:12.720 -- 00:35:22.440 Terry Wahls: And so my choice was Okay, you have two young kids who are watching what you're doing and my choice to give up. 212 00:35:23.580 -- 00:35:31.680 Terry Wahls: And succumb to my depression and the dark thoughts that I had would be modeling on life is tough you you give up. 213 00:35:32.760 -- 00:35:37.170 Terry Wahls: Or, I could make the choice of i'm going to do all that I can. 214 00:35:38.280 -- 00:35:47.820 Terry Wahls: In which was, I want to keep working out whatever my limited workout is going to be every day i'll keep going to work in they're going to have to have chores. 215 00:35:49.050 -- 00:36:06.660 Terry Wahls: You know I grew up on a farm I understood that chores were really very beneficial for children and young people growing up, and so my wife right said, your kids will have to have chores and, of course, as I became more disabled like it yep they have chores and they have. 216 00:36:08.640 -- 00:36:13.680 Terry Wahls: It really is real work that needed to happen, I and so. 217 00:36:14.940 -- 00:36:22.980 Terry Wahls: that's sort of would chuckle like Okay, I guess, God heard me and I said, my kids need to have chores and saw to it that they were going to have chores. 218 00:36:25.020 -- 00:36:31.260 Wade Lightheart: Viktor frankl has impacted so many people in the book man's search for meaning I think it's. 219 00:36:31.650 -- 00:36:32.700 Terry Wahls: Really striking found. 220 00:36:33.270 -- 00:36:44.340 Wade Lightheart: I want to extend one other piece to this because, to your partner and i'm sure you had plenty of candid discussions inside of that what was like that for you and what was your best. 221 00:36:45.660 -- 00:36:46.830 Wade Lightheart: Observation of what that. 222 00:36:46.830 -- 00:36:47.940 Wade Lightheart: was her. 223 00:36:49.170 -- 00:36:50.640 Terry Wahls: Well, I remember. 224 00:36:52.710 -- 00:37:11.310 Terry Wahls: She worked really hard at getting me to get to go out and do things so she loves mountain biking and took me in my wheelchair out to the park set set me up under the tree well she what mountain biking so. 225 00:37:12.900 -- 00:37:22.860 Terry Wahls: much bigger deal for her, and then it came back and helps me walk down to the water's edge and. 226 00:37:24.090 -- 00:37:25.140 Terry Wahls: got in the water, but. 227 00:37:27.720 -- 00:37:39.000 Terry Wahls: You know, a wonderful commitment just another example, all that she had done for me and then, when she was out mountain biking in the winter. 228 00:37:40.620 -- 00:37:42.690 Terry Wahls: She broke her ankle. 229 00:37:43.800 -- 00:37:46.020 Terry Wahls: It would have to have so. 230 00:37:47.940 -- 00:37:52.110 Terry Wahls: After our two kids were going off to Sweden. 231 00:37:53.280 -- 00:38:05.310 Terry Wahls: For a week to be with friends, so we sent sent them off we showed them that you know jack and I would be fine jack header surgery to have her ankle set and the pins set. 232 00:38:06.390 -- 00:38:06.990 Terry Wahls: And i'm. 233 00:38:08.100 -- 00:38:11.940 Terry Wahls: taking care of jack getting her her pain pills. 234 00:38:12.960 -- 00:38:15.150 Terry Wahls: And our friends were bringing over. 235 00:38:16.170 -- 00:38:23.040 Terry Wahls: takeout for us so so we could eat and the week that we had planned to have off with each other. 236 00:38:24.210 -- 00:38:30.540 Terry Wahls: While the kids were in Sweden, of course, was quite different was giving her pain pills were watching. 237 00:38:32.010 -- 00:38:33.660 Terry Wahls: netflix movies. 238 00:38:35.100 -- 00:38:39.810 Terry Wahls: And I just felt immensely grateful that I could finally be taking care of her. 239 00:38:41.790 -- 00:38:42.600 Wade Lightheart: You know. 240 00:38:44.190 -- 00:38:57.120 Wade Lightheart: One of the things that i've noticed, I went through a tragedy at an early age, my sister was diagnosed with hodgkin's disease and progressively until she died at age 22 she was four years, my senior and the striking. 241 00:38:59.070 -- 00:39:10.410 Wade Lightheart: component of being subjected to a serious medical condition and all of its dire consequences and everything that kind of disrupts the natural flow of life. 242 00:39:11.040 -- 00:39:27.480 Wade Lightheart: There is this other side of it, where you see the outpouring of love and connection and humanity and kind of the noble aspects that inspire all of us to you know it's. 243 00:39:27.930 -- 00:39:37.860 Wade Lightheart: I call it the sublime or to see that there are other energies or forces beyond our intellect that have that define what it is to be a human. 244 00:39:38.940 -- 00:39:47.070 Wade Lightheart: And there's these beautiful little moments, whether that's in the patient rooms, or maybe with a nurse or a doctor. 245 00:39:47.490 -- 00:39:56.460 Wade Lightheart: or a loved one or a friend, where they going above and beyond in the care of either the extended family or with the individual and. 246 00:39:57.420 -- 00:40:16.620 Wade Lightheart: it's if you've been in that situation it's hard to describe it's transcendent because you just see pure kindness and pure love and concern for other people and it's it's inspired me in my own life to continue to advocate you know. 247 00:40:18.030 -- 00:40:26.130 Wade Lightheart: Then commit to helping other people live a healthier and better life, because I saw the impact that well your health isn't a guarantee and your life isn't a guarantee at a very early age. 248 00:40:27.330 -- 00:40:31.500 Wade Lightheart: How has this situation with yourself. 249 00:40:32.520 -- 00:40:35.790 Wade Lightheart: Inspired you your research and what. 250 00:40:35.820 -- 00:40:46.050 Wade Lightheart: We see happen as a way of you know, providing hope and opportunity for more of those moments for other people. 251 00:40:46.800 -- 00:40:56.550 Terry Wahls: You know, when I had my remarkable recovery my chair of medicine at the university called me and told me first to get a case report written up. 252 00:40:57.720 -- 00:41:03.060 Terry Wahls: In like on myself so yeah yeah this is your job, your assignment for the years right I got that done. 253 00:41:04.260 -- 00:41:12.360 Terry Wahls: Then, my got that published he called me back and say okay Now I want you to safety and feasibility study testing out this Protocol. 254 00:41:13.590 -- 00:41:24.360 Terry Wahls: You know there's and I said well that's not the research that I do it goes i'll get you the mentors that's your assignment and that's what you'll do so I saluted that Okay, Sir, and. 255 00:41:25.410 -- 00:41:41.550 Terry Wahls: Then, as people at the university some books were intensely critical, but what I was doing I in as I published my research and published my book, and my Ted talk I got all sorts of hate mail immense criticism. 256 00:41:42.810 -- 00:41:46.110 Terry Wahls: And so I do these interviews had say well. 257 00:41:47.400 -- 00:41:58.350 Terry Wahls: You know, obviously, obviously I want you to do what you think is ethically right, but I will tell you that I remember what it's like to be disabled. 258 00:41:59.700 -- 00:42:17.160 Terry Wahls: And that I need to tell people what my story was and the research that i'm doing, and they can decide how comfortable, they are with eating more vegetables meditating exercising asking for physical therapy in work with your medical team. 259 00:42:18.810 -- 00:42:21.300 Terry Wahls: And i'll keep putting that information out there. 260 00:42:22.320 -- 00:42:34.020 Terry Wahls: And so many times, I was you know ripped to shreds called unprofessional in dangerous in worse, and I would just call me set you know. 261 00:42:34.470 -- 00:42:45.930 Terry Wahls: Absolutely do what you think is ethically right, and I am i'll be to do what I think is ethically right absolutely I will disclose my conflicts of interest, I will disclose. 262 00:42:46.650 -- 00:42:59.670 Terry Wahls: Where the researcher that a caution people to work with they're treating physicians and they can decide how dangerous vegetables are how dangerous meditation is it how dangerous exercises for that. 263 00:43:01.290 -- 00:43:11.010 Terry Wahls: I just call me state those things, and then you know people would have their intense reaction like yo ever wonder I just saying like. 264 00:43:11.520 -- 00:43:27.180 Terry Wahls: Well, and how would you feel if I came started saying I could do all these things to treat rheumatoid arthritis and say, well, if that got my rheumatoid arthritis patients eat more vegetables to meditate exercise, I would say hello yeah. 265 00:43:30.330 -- 00:43:33.150 Wade Lightheart: i'm gonna ask I just a big thing because we're living in. 266 00:43:34.380 -- 00:43:46.020 Wade Lightheart: An interesting time right now, and there is a significant condemnation of certain narratives around medical and i've been following. 267 00:43:47.370 -- 00:43:51.810 Wade Lightheart: The weinstein's I don't know if you know who they are their evolutionary biologists. 268 00:43:52.380 -- 00:43:59.310 Wade Lightheart: That were essentially kicked out of evergreen university and ended up starting their own podcast because they were willing to challenge. 269 00:43:59.790 -- 00:44:05.370 Wade Lightheart: Some of the negative criticism that was directed towards the research and and heather and. 270 00:44:06.210 -- 00:44:13.620 Wade Lightheart: And Brett the husband and wife team they go through the science currently with the pandemic that we're dealing with today. 271 00:44:14.070 -- 00:44:24.930 Wade Lightheart: And they take it apart like reasonable rational scientists with skepticism and scientific method night as a non scientist person or I don't have a medical background. 272 00:44:25.260 -- 00:44:38.310 Wade Lightheart: I find it very refreshing to be able to kind of borrow on their intellectual acumen and they're structured thinking to go through this, and they also have received extreme levels of criticism. 273 00:44:38.790 -- 00:44:58.230 Wade Lightheart: And i've interviewed a number of doctors, who have made breakthrough discoveries we've had them on the podcast and variety of conditions and they to get subjected, particularly to very vicious attacks from their peers, why is that do you think is something threatening about it or. 274 00:44:58.950 -- 00:44:59.550 Terry Wahls: Explain. 275 00:44:59.610 -- 00:45:00.750 Terry Wahls: The biology of what. 276 00:45:00.810 -- 00:45:05.880 Terry Wahls: That happens i'm going to invite you to reflect pretty carefully we'll talk about this. 277 00:45:07.560 -- 00:45:09.240 Terry Wahls: sensory input, as it comes up. 278 00:45:10.860 -- 00:45:30.900 Terry Wahls: to buy spinal cord and brain is an overwhelming by him of information so at various points, the amount of information that gets through keeps getting cut down to smaller and smaller amounts so that my vision my hearing my sensory my sense of space. 279 00:45:32.100 -- 00:45:41.040 Terry Wahls: Is a tiny fraction less than half a percent of what's coming in and that and as infants, we learn to do that, so we can. 280 00:45:42.180 -- 00:45:56.880 Terry Wahls: cope, we can feed ourselves interact with the world on on just a tiny amount of information in we learn to do that in our social constructs first in our family unit in our expanded. 281 00:45:57.990 -- 00:46:03.930 Terry Wahls: universe of friends colleagues in our educational life and then in our work life. 282 00:46:05.070 -- 00:46:16.470 Terry Wahls: And so we we learned to interact with a tiny amount of information for my relationship with my my spouse my kids my family. 283 00:46:17.580 -- 00:46:32.670 Terry Wahls: I, and so is information that comes in that doesn't conform to my understanding of the world, it doesn't get to my cortex it doesn't get to my higher and say it's been pruned out and then what apply does get to my cortex I ignore it. 284 00:46:33.960 -- 00:46:36.240 Terry Wahls: Because it doesn't it doesn't match my to save the world. 285 00:46:37.470 -- 00:46:40.380 Terry Wahls: And then I may ridicule it I may push back. 286 00:46:41.490 -- 00:46:50.520 Terry Wahls: And then occasionally there's enough information that I realize maybe I need to change my understanding of the world. 287 00:46:51.990 -- 00:47:03.870 Terry Wahls: And we will do that with minus eight of my best friend my spouse my kids my work environments my professional environment until mindset of the world is somehow shatter. 288 00:47:05.610 -- 00:47:25.950 Terry Wahls: So of course our anyone who is an innovator, who thinks of something really new and different is going to face that kind of resistance, the innovators, in order to be successful, have to be okay with being ridiculed rejected potentially burned at the stake mm hmm. 289 00:47:27.330 -- 00:47:31.110 Terry Wahls: And you know part of the reason that I think i've been successful. 290 00:47:32.130 -- 00:47:54.930 Terry Wahls: And wanting to hang in here with this is that I had this internal moral obligation, because my own experience, the other reason that i'm successful is i'm a lesbian, and so I had to as part of my evolution as a emotional adult is it to let go of societal expectations of May I finally. 291 00:47:56.190 -- 00:48:02.550 Terry Wahls: Let all of that roll off my back and became comfortable with who, I am in my family structure. 292 00:48:03.750 -- 00:48:12.090 Terry Wahls: In being able to eventually get comfortable with that I think has made it easy for me to let the criticism that i've gotten. 293 00:48:12.960 -- 00:48:25.050 Terry Wahls: and probably another thing that's helpful is I am sort of clueless My family has found it far more stressful for the amount of criticism i've gotten over the years that I have because I just. 294 00:48:26.640 -- 00:48:27.690 Terry Wahls: focused on. 295 00:48:27.810 -- 00:48:28.590 My. 296 00:48:30.780 -- 00:48:36.060 Terry Wahls: You know my work my family what i'm doing and i'm oblivious to the world. 297 00:48:38.580 -- 00:48:46.590 Terry Wahls: And so i've i've learned to pay more attention to the world professionally but i'm still more oblivious than many of my colleagues. 298 00:48:49.200 -- 00:48:55.590 Wade Lightheart: it's a very important distinction, I think, for people to understand that. 299 00:48:57.120 -- 00:49:00.180 Wade Lightheart: Much of our world, I think it was. 300 00:49:02.970 -- 00:49:05.070 Wade Lightheart: reminded Maharishi that says. 301 00:49:06.180 -- 00:49:10.170 Wade Lightheart: there's no sense of being upset of the world, because the world he perceived doesn't actually exist. 302 00:49:13.980 -- 00:49:14.280 Wade Lightheart: enough. 303 00:49:14.640 -- 00:49:25.380 Wade Lightheart: That you brought this up is on Sunday, I was at my meditation Center and the monk was giving a discussion about the. 304 00:49:25.890 -- 00:49:30.360 Wade Lightheart: amount of information that's coming into our nervous system and how much is if it's actually filtered out. 305 00:49:30.930 -- 00:49:45.150 Wade Lightheart: And the component of meditation is to increase in open up one's awareness, to increase the opportunity for us to expand our consciousness or awareness into other areas, yet we live in a world today. 306 00:49:46.230 -- 00:49:59.400 Wade Lightheart: Which is fascinating because we've never had more information coming through to us yet specialization has increased as society. 307 00:50:00.300 -- 00:50:10.500 Wade Lightheart: improves and technological innovation so, for example, 100 years ago I needed to know how to chop wood and I needed to know how to farm and I needed to know how to maybe. 308 00:50:11.490 -- 00:50:23.910 Wade Lightheart: Properly hunt or clean animals and how to fix my house and it was a very more rural setting and today, you can have a job in in an urban area let's say as a cashier. 309 00:50:24.570 -- 00:50:30.750 Wade Lightheart: And you literally don't have to know anything other than how to punch numbers into the code and what's up and so. 310 00:50:31.170 -- 00:50:39.210 Wade Lightheart: The the interesting component as we've developed so much technologically we in and we get so much more information there's almost like. 311 00:50:39.630 -- 00:50:57.990 Wade Lightheart: As a response there's a drilling down to narrowness do you think that is something that needs to be identified in the medical community or do you think there's a way that we can cultivate innovation in geniuses in a way that doesn't. 312 00:50:59.130 -- 00:51:03.360 Wade Lightheart: draw the ire of people who are performing functions within that field. 313 00:51:04.590 -- 00:51:05.310 Terry Wahls: I think. 314 00:51:06.510 -- 00:51:17.370 Terry Wahls: Anyone who's truly innovative is going to draw the ire because it's very uncomfortable to have to abandon my constructs of how I understand the world. 315 00:51:18.450 -- 00:51:34.950 Terry Wahls: None of us want to do that I don't want to do that, you don't want to do that, we won't easily do that, so I don't think it's possible to have innovation that without facing ridicule and rejection at first and then either your ideas pan out. 316 00:51:36.240 -- 00:51:37.740 Terry Wahls: Or the suppressed. 317 00:51:39.690 -- 00:51:46.530 Terry Wahls: And so you keep doing the experiments, I have. 318 00:51:48.420 -- 00:52:01.260 Terry Wahls: A unique story, you know it actually the university's sort of commented on this, because most of my research has been funded by philanthropic gifts. 319 00:52:02.730 -- 00:52:05.640 Terry Wahls: From people whose lives, I have touched. 320 00:52:06.660 -- 00:52:14.370 Terry Wahls: Who then afterwards, who happen to have money, and so you know I believe what you're doing a turtle like to support your research. 321 00:52:15.990 -- 00:52:34.260 Terry Wahls: And so here's a gift for your next project, and so the second time that happened, but we got a six figure donation to my research lab the dean of the College called me and I had a meeting I thought your God yo who have I pissed off now. 322 00:52:36.990 -- 00:52:37.380 Wade Lightheart: Of course. 323 00:52:37.410 -- 00:52:38.430 Terry Wahls: And it was like. 324 00:52:39.870 -- 00:52:43.620 Terry Wahls: This has never happened at the University of iowa So what are you doing. 325 00:52:45.030 -- 00:52:59.850 Terry Wahls: And you know we continue to have some remarkable philanthropic support, which is a that has allowed me to invest it to do some really interesting and small projects and now we'll be doing this much larger project. 326 00:53:01.770 -- 00:53:02.730 Terry Wahls: Because. 327 00:53:04.080 -- 00:53:25.110 Terry Wahls: i've made a diff I have a protocol that has had some dramatic impact on people who have resources, then, to come back to me in my lab say you know what we like what you do a talk to us about some ideas and we think we'd like to give you another larger gift. 328 00:53:27.090 -- 00:53:28.050 Terry Wahls: And so. 329 00:53:29.100 -- 00:53:46.470 Terry Wahls: That allows me in some ways to be vastly more innovative than folks who have to write grants that have to convince their peers have a newly innovative idea who can't accept new big innovations, they can accept small incremental. 330 00:53:47.490 -- 00:53:48.630 Terry Wahls: Partial ovations. 331 00:53:49.290 -- 00:53:51.030 Terry Wahls: You know and and what i've done. 332 00:53:51.960 -- 00:54:07.050 Terry Wahls: With my multi multi modal studies was a huge big innovation that was completely utterly rejected by all the NIH folks in 2010 when we're writing those grants. 333 00:54:08.370 -- 00:54:15.960 Terry Wahls: But now you're in 2011 these multimodal studies are being done, and our work has been cited. 334 00:54:17.100 -- 00:54:17.550 Terry Wahls: Beautiful. 335 00:54:18.000 -- 00:54:30.570 Wade Lightheart: I was also listening to Eric weinstein that's brett's brother he runs a podcast called dark horses and advanced physicist a super genius and he was sharing how. 336 00:54:31.200 -- 00:54:45.240 Wade Lightheart: Many of the current research grant organizations are stifling a lot of the development of science and what he felt that there was between him and his brother and a sister they had three. 337 00:54:47.220 -- 00:54:57.330 Wade Lightheart: Human human transformational discoveries that was essentially being suppressed, and he says, well, if you do the math of how many other researchers that could be. 338 00:54:57.690 -- 00:55:04.080 Wade Lightheart: Situated in this, I think a lot of people and, and this is what I love about alternative funding. 339 00:55:04.560 -- 00:55:14.610 Wade Lightheart: That the NIH over the last 30 years I think has given out somewhere around $3 trillion in research grants, but they develop they define what gets. 340 00:55:15.360 -- 00:55:23.940 Wade Lightheart: What gets accepted and what doesn't but now there's these other funding options that you kind of illustrated with yourself that are allowing researchers to maybe go outside of. 341 00:55:24.330 -- 00:55:34.890 Wade Lightheart: The normal parameters using science, but to kind of create exponential growth, do you see that as the future for research that you're doing or expanding teachers in the field. 342 00:55:35.040 -- 00:55:38.190 Terry Wahls: So, so I think that peer review. 343 00:55:39.270 -- 00:55:41.550 Terry Wahls: incremental approach has certainly. 344 00:55:42.780 -- 00:55:48.180 Terry Wahls: hugely deepen understanding of physiology in very wonderful ways. 345 00:55:51.030 -- 00:56:11.820 Terry Wahls: The ability to do what i'm doing his also ultra understanding in really profound ways I in that as been on the basis of this philanthropic gifts because we've made an impact on the lives of people have to have a lot of money. 346 00:56:13.560 -- 00:56:28.710 Terry Wahls: And you know when i'm in these meetings with my other scientific colleagues who are doing dietary research in there right yeah i'm writing grants, along with them and sore they were talking about the issued struggles to get through to peer reviews. 347 00:56:29.940 -- 00:56:33.210 Terry Wahls: To do the innovative work I and. 348 00:56:34.470 -- 00:56:43.680 Terry Wahls: When I reflect on what i'm going to be able to launch into next because i've had i'm so blessed to have this philanthropic support. 349 00:56:46.800 -- 00:56:53.910 Terry Wahls: And I think the bigger breakthroughs will come through from folks who have access to philanthropic support. 350 00:56:54.630 -- 00:56:57.420 Wade Lightheart: know, can you talk about what's coming down the pipe for. 351 00:56:57.450 -- 00:56:57.870 yeah. 352 00:56:59.370 -- 00:57:00.000 Terry Wahls: it's very exciting. 353 00:57:01.200 -- 00:57:12.660 Terry Wahls: So again, this is from a grateful patient who really believes in what we're doing we're going to enroll people. 354 00:57:13.680 -- 00:57:32.370 Terry Wahls: with multiple sclerosis relapse remitting who want to do a dietary approach they'll need to be agreed to be randomized between a ketogenic diet, a modified Paleo diet and dietary guidelines will give them support. 355 00:57:33.750 -- 00:57:43.860 Terry Wahls: over that time period, we will follow them over two years we will be measuring did they actually implement the diet. 356 00:57:44.310 -- 00:58:00.450 Terry Wahls: What what are they eating so will will know about dietary adherence we will know about clinical outcomes in terms of walking function vision function hand function will understand patient reported outcomes in terms of mood. 357 00:58:03.570 -- 00:58:11.610 Terry Wahls: Processing speed or memory fatigue, quality of life, we will have biomarkers as well. 358 00:58:13.200 -- 00:58:13.740 Terry Wahls: and 359 00:58:15.930 -- 00:58:34.380 Terry Wahls: This will be the first time that will have had a study of this size for two years, that will be able to look at changes in clinical outcomes changes in biomarkers whilst be looking at myelination along the way. 360 00:58:35.610 -- 00:58:36.180 Terry Wahls: as well. 361 00:58:37.680 -- 00:58:46.350 Terry Wahls: And we're will be freezing microbiome specimens will be freezing blood specimens so at the end. 362 00:58:47.400 -- 00:58:55.200 Terry Wahls: We will ask bill to write another grant to go back and say let's look at the molecular mechanisms of what is going on and why. 363 00:58:56.250 -- 00:58:59.820 Terry Wahls: So this will be absolutely transformational. 364 00:59:01.440 -- 00:59:05.910 Terry Wahls: A smaller study that may be even more transformational in some ways. 365 00:59:05.910 -- 00:59:08.640 Terry Wahls: Ways it may be looking at an. 366 00:59:10.380 -- 00:59:21.510 Terry Wahls: An online course that we've created that teaches people through virtual technology such as this, how to improve diet. 367 00:59:22.770 -- 00:59:24.600 Terry Wahls: Stress reduction and exercise. 368 00:59:25.620 -- 00:59:30.060 Terry Wahls: In these supplemental non diet not exercise things that you can be doing. 369 00:59:31.710 -- 00:59:44.310 Terry Wahls: And we'll see that impact on MS patients with we're so that cities approved, we are talking now with our cancer Center and. 370 00:59:45.600 -- 00:59:57.690 Terry Wahls: We anticipate having it studied in cancer we're also talking to rheumatology folks and saying this in rheumatology patients as well, so if we can show anticipate that will we will build a show. 371 00:59:58.170 -- 01:00:10.590 Terry Wahls: That we can teach these concepts online and have improvement in dietary intake improvement in patient reported outcomes Now this is. 372 01:00:12.120 -- 01:00:13.020 Terry Wahls: The sky's the limit. 373 01:00:14.550 -- 01:00:19.170 Terry Wahls: We can transform more lives, this can be. 374 01:00:22.050 -- 01:00:26.130 Terry Wahls: expanded its it has no limits. 375 01:00:27.180 -- 01:00:34.080 Wade Lightheart: You know, this is one of the beauty beautiful things about the Internet and the distribution of information is once. 376 01:00:35.190 -- 01:00:45.750 Wade Lightheart: A demonstrated will protocol breakthrough can be developed, you can share that with a wide variety of people who might not have both the medical. 377 01:00:45.750 -- 01:00:54.000 Wade Lightheart: Or you know the or the even the knowledge of that by you know hey they find out about it, they can experiment they take it to their professional medical science said hey i'd like to. 378 01:00:54.570 -- 01:00:58.920 Wade Lightheart: i'd like to experiment with this on our own, on my own Is that what you anticipate happening. 379 01:00:59.310 -- 01:01:03.930 Terry Wahls: Well, what we certainly anticipate is that this makes it so much more available to. 380 01:01:04.950 -- 01:01:12.090 Terry Wahls: Rural communities to small small communities that don't have access to professionals that could. 381 01:01:13.050 -- 01:01:35.760 Terry Wahls: say a dietitian or to those populations, for whom transport into a clinic is a huge difficulty because of their motor disabilities or access to transportation, so I think this makes it so much more readily available and it's standardized is the education. 382 01:01:37.110 -- 01:01:38.730 Terry Wahls: So I mean, I think this will be. 383 01:01:40.020 -- 01:01:42.960 Terry Wahls: You know, huge huge huge technology. 384 01:01:44.370 -- 01:01:56.910 Terry Wahls: You know that the next the other studies that were the grant next grant that i'm writing and we'll see if I can get this funded by grants or, if not we'll be going back through philanthropic support. 385 01:01:58.230 -- 01:02:03.810 Terry Wahls: When can people stop the disease modifying drug treatment, but when can you do a point is that appropriate. 386 01:02:04.620 -- 01:02:14.550 Terry Wahls: So there are a couple of studies that are underway, now that are randomized and you stop where you stay on there's no intervention to make it more likely that the stoppers will do okay. 387 01:02:15.060 -- 01:02:31.740 Terry Wahls: um so of course you know you know me i'm like well there's a lot we can do to make it more likely that if you stop you're going to be okay, and so we're working on designing studies that could make it more likely that the stoppers will in fact be okay. 388 01:02:32.310 -- 01:02:50.220 Wade Lightheart: that's a that's a really huge piece, because I guess once a once a person has a diagnosis and is going by standard Karen is on a pathway through their physician, many of the physicians are remiss to kind of stop that because of the you know the the legal and. 389 01:02:50.610 -- 01:02:52.740 Wade Lightheart: Well, that would be so. 390 01:02:52.920 -- 01:03:10.500 Terry Wahls: The current standard of care for an autoimmune disease is once you're on a disease modifying treatment you're on that the rest of your life or maybe until you're in your 60s, I should, is there a way to identify who could be weaned off safely. 391 01:03:11.700 -- 01:03:20.400 Terry Wahls: And so I think that's a really important question i've been talking with my neurology colleagues who agree like yep that's a really important question. 392 01:03:20.790 -- 01:03:27.990 Terry Wahls: we've been working on that study design and we will be putting that grant forward. 393 01:03:29.040 -- 01:03:30.060 Terry Wahls: very excited about that. 394 01:03:31.320 -- 01:03:32.070 Wade Lightheart: So. 395 01:03:33.120 -- 01:03:48.480 Wade Lightheart: i'm gonna i'm gonna invite you know that you can you said that you had to give away the future but i'm going to ask you, what do you see happening in the future, so I could ask you to go out there, what would you like to see happen or what would you like to see. 396 01:03:49.620 -- 01:03:55.800 Wade Lightheart: come out of your research your work and that of your colleagues in this area, what do you, what do you hope to happen. 397 01:03:56.220 -- 01:03:57.420 Terry Wahls: Well, you know, I think. 398 01:03:59.040 -- 01:04:14.850 Terry Wahls: What I see is more dietary multimodal interventions that there is a greater recognition that human physiology is incredibly complicated that single drug based steps. 399 01:04:15.630 -- 01:04:31.200 Terry Wahls: compounds that impact our physiology in one pathway very effectively is not going to restore health, but if we're going to restore health we're going to have to work on a comprehensive multimodal support. 400 01:04:31.860 -- 01:04:41.460 Terry Wahls: and that it will make it even more complicated and messy is that if I were to do a multimodal intervention that addresses diet lifestyle exercise. 401 01:04:42.360 -- 01:04:53.670 Terry Wahls: I need to allow for self determination, because if i'm going to have you adapt this multimodal stuff for the next year or two years. 402 01:04:54.420 -- 01:05:06.240 Terry Wahls: I need to design a method of support that gives you autonomy to select elements of what is the meditative practice you gonna do what is the exercise gonna do what is. 403 01:05:07.110 -- 01:05:16.500 Terry Wahls: The dietary plan that the menu of what I offer that you can do so that we're designing a lifestyle intervention that. 404 01:05:17.040 -- 01:05:30.780 Terry Wahls: meets my targets but you've had autonomy and design it what to meet your needs and your family needs that's messy complicated hard science to do that we're going to have to work out. 405 01:05:32.340 -- 01:05:44.490 Terry Wahls: But I think it's really arbitrary say you got to do ballet as your workout you're going to have to do the modified Paleo diet, as your workout and you're going to have to do a mantra based meditation meditation. 406 01:05:47.100 -- 01:06:00.840 Terry Wahls: That doesn't allow for autonomy that's going to make it much harder to adapt this new behavior and sustain if we can personalize this for that you have a variety of acceptable. 407 01:06:01.890 -- 01:06:08.640 Terry Wahls: strategies that you could use to hit the targets that we lay out, I think that would be more successful. 408 01:06:09.930 -- 01:06:14.400 Terry Wahls: My team and I are thinking deeply about how we could design that. 409 01:06:16.500 -- 01:06:34.260 Terry Wahls: What are the parameters that could work in what are the standardized target so it's reproducible science, this will be messy it'll be difficult, and I think one of the reasons i'm so innovative is I don't have a PhD I have an md. 410 01:06:35.460 -- 01:06:54.540 Terry Wahls: I have a depth of clinical experience I have ideas now hire my PhD say Okay, we take these ideas we're going to keep working on it till we come up with a rigorous approach that's reproducible that honors the basic framework that i've laid out yet and. 411 01:06:56.490 -- 01:07:01.890 Terry Wahls: My pitch, these are coming along they're like okay Okay, I think we can do this. 412 01:07:05.310 -- 01:07:09.150 Terry Wahls: You know I realized, now that if i'd had my PhD. 413 01:07:10.860 -- 01:07:29.430 Terry Wahls: I wouldn't be as innovative I would be more in this yet the the the intervention has to be exactly this intervention and we're not going to allow for any patient autonomy and self determination, because that is how research is done. 414 01:07:30.030 -- 01:07:32.250 Terry Wahls: Correct that is not how life is lived. 415 01:07:32.550 -- 01:07:39.450 Wade Lightheart: Right PhD research is you're controlling all the parameters in life it's impossible to control all the parameters essentially. 416 01:07:40.320 -- 01:07:53.070 Terry Wahls: So if we're going to ask someone to do this for a year or two years, we need to think about that self determination aspect, a little bit more. 417 01:07:54.510 -- 01:08:03.630 Wade Lightheart: last question before you we go you've been so generous with your time and your information, your research, and I know there's going to be some listeners here they're going to wonder about this. 418 01:08:04.710 -- 01:08:13.170 Wade Lightheart: would like for you to speak to someone who might have multiple sclerosis or someone who might know some with multiple sclerosis. 419 01:08:13.650 -- 01:08:26.700 Wade Lightheart: or looking at options, what would you say to them as someone who has you know, been subjected to the to the diagnosis saw the degeneration and found a way to turn it around and doing research, what would you say to that person. 420 01:08:28.350 -- 01:08:41.400 Terry Wahls: So I had really profound disability and profound levels of pain and was able to have a dramatic impact by addressing what was under my control. 421 01:08:42.570 -- 01:08:56.220 Terry Wahls: And then, working with my position to adjust my medications appropriately we seen that in others, and of course we don't know for you what level of recovery might be possible. 422 01:08:57.630 -- 01:09:08.010 Terry Wahls: But, are you doing all that you can, in terms of improving your diet, adding a stress reduction practice thinking about movement practice. 423 01:09:09.270 -- 01:09:15.960 Terry Wahls: We, we have a variety of tools that can help you in that journey would love to be support. 424 01:09:18.630 -- 01:09:36.630 Terry Wahls: it's not just Ms it's part of the proteome it's other autoimmune conditions there's so much that can be done to slow your decline and often rest in reverse the disability we'd love to help you in we could. 425 01:09:38.460 -- 01:09:47.130 Terry Wahls: We have a variety of resources for you at Terry walls that calm try, while still be a challenge COM. 426 01:09:49.350 -- 01:09:58.710 Wade Lightheart: Dr dairy walls it's an honor and a privilege for you to join us today on the awesome health podcast and I am inspired by your story. 427 01:09:59.220 -- 01:10:10.650 Wade Lightheart: and your research and your work and i'm wishing you continued success in this journey, I know you're making a big impact for a lot of people and that's a very noble cause, thank you for your effort. 428 01:10:12.120 -- 01:10:13.710 Terry Wahls: Much love to you and your team as well. 429 01:10:15.450 -- 01:10:22.920 Wade Lightheart: There you have it folks another edition of the awesome health podcast just absolutely remarkable work about what's possible. 430 01:10:23.160 -- 01:10:35.580 Wade Lightheart: actually know, we believe that you can go from six to superhuman Dr Terry walls is someone who has is a living example of the possibilities of great diet. 431 01:10:36.390 -- 01:10:45.780 Wade Lightheart: meditation and an iron will to discover the possibilities of human physiology Thank you so much for joining us today, we appreciate. 432 01:10:46.590 -- 01:10:57.540 Wade Lightheart: You listening, if you like it, you can share it and, of course, check all of the information on the show notes, if you or someone you love is suffering from one of these autoimmune conditions like multiple sclerosis. 433 01:10:57.840 -- 01:11:06.000 Wade Lightheart: Make sure that you check out Dr Terry walls and her research thanks so much for joining us today i'm at light heart from by optimize there's see you next time.